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Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?

Become an R&R Traditionalist
12 (35.3%)
Become an Indult Traditionalist
6 (17.6%)
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9 (26.5%)
Become a very liberal Catholic
1 (2.9%)
Cease to practice Catholicism
6 (17.6%)

Total Members Voted: 28

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Author Topic: Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?  (Read 27120 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?
« Reply #60 on: July 07, 2020, 07:08:37 PM »
Quote from: SeanJohnson on July 07, 2020, 06:44:26 PM
When Pope Liberius signed a semi-Arian formulation (yeah, yeah, Daly disputes it, blah, blah...).

It's not just Daly.  It's been highly debated among Catholic scholars for a very long time.

https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09217a.htm
Quote
It should be carefully noted that the question of the fall of Liberius is one that has been and can be freely debated among Catholics. No one pretends that, if Liberius signed the most Arian formulæ in exile, he did it freely; so that no question of his infallibility is involved. It is admitted on all sides that his noble attitude of resistance before his exile and during his exile was not belied by any act of his after his return, that he was in no way sullied when so many failed at the Council of Rimini, and that he acted vigorously for the healing of orthodoxy throughout the West from the grievous wound. If he really consorted with heretics, condemned Athanasius, or even denied the Son of God, it was a momentary human weakness which no more compromises the papacy than does that of St. Peter.
Note that this Catholic Encyclopedia author implies that had he done so freely, it would have brought infallibility into question and would have "compromised the papacy".  But R&R say that an Ecuмenical Council and Mass officially taught/promulgated to the Universal Church do not "compromise" the papacy.
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Offline SeanJohnson

Re: Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?
« Reply #61 on: July 07, 2020, 07:11:10 PM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on July 07, 2020, 07:08:37 PM
It's not just Daly.  It's been highly debated among Catholic scholars for a very long time.

https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09217a.htm
...and the reason his infallibility was not involved was because it was an act of the authentic magisterium (not the OUM or EM). 

Nevertheless, according to your logic, it is impossible for 99% of the hierarchy to follow the pope into error (or the Church has defected).

Yet 99% DID follow the pope in this declaration, and the Church DID NOT defect).

Same thing with Vatican II.
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?
« Reply #62 on: July 07, 2020, 07:13:17 PM »
Quote from: SeanJohnson on July 07, 2020, 07:11:10 PM
...and the reason his infallibility was not involved was because it was an act of the authentic magisterium, not the OUM or EM.

No.  I just added a citation above.  It's because, IF (and it's highly debated) he did sign the formulae, he did so under duress, and it was not a free act (akin to the Paul VI was being blackmailed over sodomy position).

It was not an act of the Magisterium period.  At best it was a personal act.  Whatever he signed was in no way being taught to the Universal Church.
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?
« Reply #63 on: July 07, 2020, 07:16:51 PM »
Quote from: SeanJohnson on July 07, 2020, 07:11:10 PM
Same thing with Vatican II.

It's nowhere close to being the same thing.  I'm glad that, from nearly-2,000 year history of the Church you could find ONE example to back up the R&R position.  Seems to me there would be more ... if it weren't for the fact that the Holy Spirit protects the Church.  Oh, yeah, of course, this is the same example that was brought up by the opponents of infallibility at Vatican I and was rejected by the Council Fathers.

Well, I take it back, if we eventually find out that Paul VI was being blackmailed, then perhaps they're the same thing.
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?
« Reply #64 on: July 07, 2020, 07:17:27 PM »
R&R has definitely made its bed with the Old Catholics and Gallicans.
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