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Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?

Become an R&R Traditionalist
12 (36.4%)
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5 (15.2%)
Become an NO Cath Conservative
9 (27.3%)
Become a very liberal Catholic
1 (3%)
Cease to practice Catholicism
6 (18.2%)

Total Members Voted: 27

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Author Topic: Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?  (Read 14677 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?
« Reply #60 on: July 07, 2020, 07:08:37 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on July 07, 2020, 06:44:26 PM
    When Pope Liberius signed a semi-Arian formulation (yeah, yeah, Daly disputes it, blah, blah...).

    It's not just Daly.  It's been highly debated among Catholic scholars for a very long time.

    https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09217a.htm
    Quote
    It should be carefully noted that the question of the fall of Liberius is one that has been and can be freely debated among Catholics. No one pretends that, if Liberius signed the most Arian formulæ in exile, he did it freely; so that no question of his infallibility is involved. It is admitted on all sides that his noble attitude of resistance before his exile and during his exile was not belied by any act of his after his return, that he was in no way sullied when so many failed at the Council of Rimini, and that he acted vigorously for the healing of orthodoxy throughout the West from the grievous wound. If he really consorted with heretics, condemned Athanasius, or even denied the Son of God, it was a momentary human weakness which no more compromises the papacy than does that of St. Peter.
    Note that this Catholic Encyclopedia author implies that had he done so freely, it would have brought infallibility into question and would have "compromised the papacy".  But R&R say that an Ecuмenical Council and Mass officially taught/promulgated to the Universal Church do not "compromise" the papacy.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?
    « Reply #61 on: July 07, 2020, 07:11:10 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on July 07, 2020, 07:08:37 PM
    It's not just Daly.  It's been highly debated among Catholic scholars for a very long time.

    https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09217a.htm
    ...and the reason his infallibility was not involved was because it was an act of the authentic magisterium (not the OUM or EM). 

    Nevertheless, according to your logic, it is impossible for 99% of the hierarchy to follow the pope into error (or the Church has defected).

    Yet 99% DID follow the pope in this declaration, and the Church DID NOT defect).

    Same thing with Vatican II.
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?
    « Reply #62 on: July 07, 2020, 07:13:17 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on July 07, 2020, 07:11:10 PM
    ...and the reason his infallibility was not involved was because it was an act of the authentic magisterium, not the OUM or EM.

    No.  I just added a citation above.  It's because, IF (and it's highly debated) he did sign the formulae, he did so under duress, and it was not a free act (akin to the Paul VI was being blackmailed over sodomy position).

    It was not an act of the Magisterium period.  At best it was a personal act.  Whatever he signed was in no way being taught to the Universal Church.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?
    « Reply #63 on: July 07, 2020, 07:16:51 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on July 07, 2020, 07:11:10 PM
    Same thing with Vatican II.

    It's nowhere close to being the same thing.  I'm glad that, from nearly-2,000 year history of the Church you could find ONE example to back up the R&R position.  Seems to me there would be more ... if it weren't for the fact that the Holy Spirit protects the Church.  Oh, yeah, of course, this is the same example that was brought up by the opponents of infallibility at Vatican I and was rejected by the Council Fathers.

    Well, I take it back, if we eventually find out that Paul VI was being blackmailed, then perhaps they're the same thing.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?
    « Reply #64 on: July 07, 2020, 07:17:27 PM »
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    • R&R has definitely made its bed with the Old Catholics and Gallicans.
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    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?
    « Reply #65 on: July 07, 2020, 07:17:38 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on July 07, 2020, 03:57:56 PM
    Uhm, he (and his predecessors) are clearly teaching Magisterially.  Their teaching is at least "merely authentic" Magisterium.
    I am sad to see this thread has become mostly people talking past each other.

    So here's an example from Amoris Laetitiae (#300). Sedes tend to say Amoris Laetitia teaches heresies, but beyond arguing whether there is or isn't heresy, shouldn't one consider how and to what extent something is conveyed?

    Quote
    If we consider the immense variety of concrete situations such as those I have mentioned, it is understandable that neither the Synod nor this Exhortation could be expected to provide a new set of general rules, canonical in nature and applicable to all cases. What is possible is simply a renewed encouragement to undertake a responsible personal and pastoral discernment of particular cases, one which would recognize that, since “the degree of responsibility is not equal in all cases”,335 the consequences or effects of a rule need not necessarily always be the same.336
    What exactly is magisterially taught to us here? There are no new rules, just an encouragement.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?
    « Reply #66 on: July 07, 2020, 07:20:14 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on July 07, 2020, 07:13:17 PM
    No.  I just added a citation above.  It's because, IF (and it's highly debated) he did sign the formulae, he did so under duress, and it was not a free act (akin to the Paul VI was being blackmailed over sodomy position).

    It was not an act of the Magisterium period.  At best it was a personal act.  Whatever he signed was in no way being taught to the Universal Church.
    Same thing with Vatican II: 
    Whatever is novel is ipso facto relegated to the level of the authentic magisterium, and to be equated with the public pronunciations of a private doctor.
    That these counterfeit teachings use the organs of the Church to diffuse them adds to the deception, but is ultimately irrelevant.
    What is relevant is that just as the general hierarchy followed Liberius (despite his teaching being non-binding), so too have they followed the conciliar popes (who have not lost their offices because of these heretical teachings, because they are opinions of private doctors publicly diffused).
    If you want to then retort that a heretic cannot be pope, we are back to the same old Bellarmine/Cajetan/JST opinions that an heretical pope does not lose his office without the intervention of the Church vs the false sede interpretation of Bellarmine which pretends he loses it ipso facto even before the Church pronounces the defection.
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?
    « Reply #67 on: July 07, 2020, 07:20:42 PM »
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    • Archbishop himself articulates the problem this poses for indefectibility, and this consideration is what left him open to the sedevacantist hypothesis ...
    Quote
    “…a grave problem confronts the conscience and the faith of all Catholics since the beginning of Paul VI’s pontificate: how can a pope who is truly successor of Peter, to whom the assistance of the Holy Ghost has been promised, preside over the most radical and far-reaching destruction of the Church ever known, in so short a time, beyond what any heresiarch has ever achieved?” (Le Figaro, August 4, 1976)
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?
    « Reply #68 on: July 07, 2020, 07:21:49 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on July 07, 2020, 07:20:14 PM
    Same thing with Vatican II:

    You guys are utterly hopeless.  You are prepared to cast aspersions on and sully the reputation of Holy Mother Church to save the likes of Bergoglio.  Shame on you.  You basically claim that Holy Mother Church has become a whore.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?
    « Reply #69 on: July 07, 2020, 07:27:45 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on July 07, 2020, 07:20:42 PM
    Archbishop himself articulates the problem this poses for indefectibility, and this consideration is what left him open to the sedevacantist hypothesis ...
    Nonsense: 
    You invent advocates and sympathizers left and right for sedevacantism because you intuit the weakness of the position.
    The fact remains that there were only 2 instances in 25 years of thoroughly recorded and publicized sermons, conferences, articles, books, and interviews in which ABL (rightly or wrongly) seems to acknowledge the theoretical possibility of sedevacantism.
    Both those instances followed upon the heels of extremely scandalous Roman acts, but you habitually fail to impute any significance to the fact that ABL never backed those statements later, and certainly never supported sedevacantism habitually (and in fact condemned the position officially).
    The proper hermeneutic in understanding the mind of an author is that the exception does not disprove the rule (ie., it cannot be used to contradict his normal, general, and overwhelmingly common position regarding sedevacantism).
    It is therefore dishonest to attempt to magnify these two particular instances as though they evince a general tolerance (or even sympathy or promotion) of sedevacantism.
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?
    « Reply #70 on: July 07, 2020, 07:28:24 PM »
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    • Ladislaus: Peace to you.  I'm dropping out of this and saving 50 hours.  You get the last word.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?
    « Reply #71 on: July 07, 2020, 07:40:47 PM »
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    • Archbishop Lefebvre here concedes the major, that it is not possible that a Pope could preside over this magnitude of systematic destruction in the Church because he is protected by the Holy Spirit.  He then speculates about possible "solutions" to this very real problem (a problem which R&R pretend doesn't exist), among them that the Pope is drugged/insane/blackmailed.  He concedes that "it's possible" but makes a case against it.  He also speculates that it could be that the man was excommunicated before being elected and therefore would not be a legitimate Pope.  He does not dismiss this possibility at all.  So R&R try to pretend that +Lefebvre was the great champion of R&R and great enemy of sedevacantism, but that's just a downright lie.



    +Lefebvre was no R&R and +Lefebvre was no sedeplenist.  He publicly entertained open doubts about the legitimacy of the V2 popes.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?
    « Reply #72 on: July 07, 2020, 07:46:52 PM »
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    • From the above recording of Archbishop Lefebvre's speech ...

    Quote
    ultimately I agree with you; it's not possible that the Pope, who is protected by the Holy Ghost, could do things like this.  There we agree; it's not possible, it doesn't fit, this destruction of the Church ...
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?
    « Reply #73 on: July 07, 2020, 07:47:39 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on July 07, 2020, 07:28:24 PM
    Ladislaus: Peace to you.  I'm dropping out of this and saving 50 hours.  You get the last word.

    Take care, Sean. I'll leave the last word on this topic to Archbishop Lefebvre (in the previous post).
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?
    « Reply #74 on: July 07, 2020, 07:53:37 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on July 07, 2020, 07:21:49 PM
    You guys are utterly hopeless.  You are prepared to cast aspersions on and sully the reputation of Holy Mother Church to save the likes of Bergoglio.  Shame on you.  You basically claim that Holy Mother Church has become a whore.
    Ahh, and this, unfortunately, is what it amounts to. They would rather destroy the fundamental tenets of the papacy and concede that the Church can officially teach and promote error, just so they can say that a degenerate communist heretic is the pope? I don’t get it! Why? Cognitive dissonance? 
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