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Poll

Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?

Become an R&R Traditionalist
12 (35.3%)
Become an Indult Traditionalist
6 (17.6%)
Become an NO Cath Conservative
9 (26.5%)
Become a very liberal Catholic
1 (2.9%)
Cease to practice Catholicism
6 (17.6%)

Total Members Voted: 28

Author Topic: Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?  (Read 27079 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Accusing sedevacantists of mixing infallibility with indefectibility is just dodging the issue with the latter by attacking the strawman of the former. Fact of the matter is, if Vatican 2 is a legitimate Church council and Francis is a legitimate pope, then the Church has been taken over by non-Catholics and has promulgated teachings and rites which are harmful to faith - by definition, a defection.

No, BOTH sides are conflating infallibility and indefectibility.  Your second sentence here is in fact the argument from indefectibility.  There's no need to exaggerate the scope if "infallibility in the strict sense" (as Msgr. Fenton called it).

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter

Can we say Gallicanism? What a stupid and ridiculous statement. Yeah, the most “dangerous” heresy of all! 😂
 
LOL ... I responded to this (in a similar manner) before I saw your response.


Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
That's not catholic at all.

He's talking about with regard to his official papal acts, the Magisterium and Universal Discipline of the Church ... not private commands.

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
The article discusses alleged errors which allegedly lead to either sedevacantism or servile obedience.

Correct.  It poses a false dilemma and beats down a sedevacantist strawman.

It does rightly speak about the existence of non-infallible Magisterium, but does not address the broader problem of indefectibility posed by Vatican II.

Unfortunately, sedevacantists tend to join them in battle on this false battleground, and have had a tendency to exaggerate the scope of infallibility in the strict sense.

This Vatican II phenomenon, as +Vigano pointed out, is MUCH MORE than a small handful of erroneous propositions, but represents a radical alteration of the Traditional Church.  Such cannot proceed from the legitimate Magisterium.

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
So what of this notion that Vatican II was a pastoral Council that did not intend to teach anything new?

Its intention was to re-present existing Catholic teaching to the world in a way that would make it more palatable.  It's a re-interpretation.  Sure, the Church teaches that there's no salvation outside the Church, but, hey, you all got it wrong, what the Church REALLY meant was ...  Oh, of course we have a Mass, but it is in fact the "Lord's supper" and "assembly of the faithful."  People used to think that when we taught that the Catholic Church was the ONE TRUE Religion, it meant that other religions were false, but, no, what we REALLY meant was that we have the FULLNESS of truth, not that you guys are wrong or bad.  You all have truth too.  We're both true.  You've heard it said that ..., but what we REALLY MEANT was ...

Basically, the very notion of this "Pastoral" Council was MODERNISM IN A NUTSHELL.  It's the notion that the meanings of Catholic doctrine can change with time and be MODERNIZED.

SO THE VERY NOTION of a PASTORAL Council is in fact textbook Modernism.  Consequently, it is heretical in its very intent and formal end, in its entire orientation.  It is not just one or two bad propositions.  You could strike 10% of it from the existence, and it still would remain a blight and a pollution on the Magisterium.  Who could ever take the Catholic Church seriously ever again?  It reduces papal Magisterium to a mere opining about various subjects related to the faith which any Catholic is free to take or leave if he decides that it's contrary to prior Church teaching.

Sure, let's keep Vatican II as a legitimate Council.  Pius XIII comes along and overturns some teachings of Vatican II.  What's to stop a Catholic from saying, Pius XIII got it wrong because he went against Tradition (as in the Vatican II Tradition)?  In that case, the only way a Pope would have to put an end to dissension and nonsense would be to issue solemn pronouncements, because everything short of that is fair game for dissent.  Yo, Pius X, you condemned Modernism?  Well, I think you're wrong.  Phouey on you!  Until you issue a dogma, I'm going to keep on truckin'.