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Poll

Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?

Become an R&R Traditionalist
12 (35.3%)
Become an Indult Traditionalist
6 (17.6%)
Become an NO Cath Conservative
9 (26.5%)
Become a very liberal Catholic
1 (2.9%)
Cease to practice Catholicism
6 (17.6%)

Total Members Voted: 28

Author Topic: Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?  (Read 26941 times)

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Here's what the sedes need to refute: http://archives.sspx.org/miscellaneous/infallible_magisterium.htm

The article discusses alleged errors which allegedly lead to either sedevacantism or servile obedience.

No need for any sedevacantist to refute it, since it doesn't even try to refute sedevacantist positions.

The (or at least a) sedevacantist position is that manifest heretics (whether material or formal) are not members of the Church and hold no office in the Church. To refute sedevacantism you need to either show that the Robber Council and the Church of that new Pentecost did not propose heresies, or that the Church of God may include heretical members (holding offices).

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
One of the few threads I've seen where people seem to be grappling with the issues and not just talking past each other.

I've read a fair amount from Francis. He writes differently than the pre-V2 popes did. He is often stating things ambiguously that admit of different interpretations, or talking about possibilities for consideration, without imposing much of anything definitely.

Is Francis being pope really incompatible with the magisterium meaning something, if he's not exactly teaching magisterially?

Uhm, he (and his predecessors) are clearly teaching Magisterially.  Their teaching is at least "merely authentic" Magisterium.


Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Ok. So, as I understand it, you're an "opinionist" sedevacantist. A sede-doubtist in other words, who believes neither position is dogmatically certain with the certainty of faith; as you explained, you believe defection is impossible and take the position that R&R contradicts Church indefectibility. You say Pope Paul VI could have been blackmailed, in theory, and this would save indefectibility. You mentioned that distinction between NO Catholics and Indult traditionalists etc that I discussed above. Did I leave anything out?

You and I agree to an extent, I think, on the non-infallible Magisterium. I'm surprised you would then in such a case disagree with Bp. Vigano and even Bp. Schneider. Bp. Schneider arguably is now saying what the Remnant, CFN, One Peter Five, Life Site News etc have argued for some time. I believe we agree Vatican II is non-infallible and defined no new dogma. But perhaps, as you quoted, we may disagree on how radically things have gone "off the rails" as you put it. I believe you once said that if it was only a question of Vatican II you would raise questions through the normal channels and go on with Catholic life as normally as possible. Well, I believe in something close to that. Regarding the Mass, I explained my thoughts earlier; not just a subjective preference but an objective superiority of the TLM. Your thoughts on that?

Yes, I don't believe that anything in Vatican II strictly had the notes of infallibility.  Nevertheless, I do agree with +Vigano against +Schneider that it's not just a question of one or two expressions in Vatican II that needs to be amended or corrected.  I believe, as +Vigano has articulated, that the entire thing is permeated with false principles that renders the thing defective at a whole.  And it set the entire Church on an orientation to depart from Tradition.  But unlike +Vigano, I do not believe that the Holy Spirit would ever allow something this radically defective.

So I agree with +Vigano that Vatican II is not salvageable with a handful of corrections.

Then I agree with Sandro Magister's recent critique of +Vigano that it is not acceptable to simply jettison an entire Ecuмenical Council.
https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/archbishop-vigano-to-sandro-magister-'we-should-forget-vatican-ii'

So I combine my agreement with these two points ... to lead me to my sede-doubtist position.

So, Xavier, do you agree with +Schneider that we're simply talking about a few points that need to be amended, or with +Vigano that it's radically defective as a whole and not salvageable?

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
What if the Popes since 1958 have been anti-popes, since Cardinal Siri was canonically elected, white smoke went up, the crowd roared, it was announced that a new pope had been elected, he accepted the papacy, chose the name Pope Gregory XVII and then an outside source bnai brith, gave the order to threaten him with the deaths of all Catholic hierarchy behind the Iron Curtain. He capitulated and resigned, which was invalid according to cannon law because it was forced.

The Freemasons/ Communists wanted a Pope in exile (also in approved Catholic Prophecy) because they had had a bad experience when they put a Freemason on the Papal Throne previously -- it was Pius IX, who was converted to Catholicism by virtue of the office -- being on the throne of Peter.

So this time they got what they wanted. A true Pope in exile and neutralized, and a series of anti-popes in the Vatican.

Pope Gregory XVII was succeeded by Pope Gregory XVIII and after that they have been in hiding.

This view is not sede.

I do believe that Siri was elected and uncanonically ousted.  I have not seen any evidence for his having a successor, so, as far as I could tell, it would be merely hypothetical.

I think that the answer to the Church crisis really is as straighforward as this ...

Cardinal Siri was the legitimately-elected pope, forced out of office under duress, and a series of impostors / usurpers / infiltrators were set up in his place by the enemies of the Church.  That is why the "Magisterium" could "fail" this badly, because it was never the Magisterium, but an Anti-Magisterium.

This monstrosity known as the Conciliar Church is simply not recognizable as the Catholic Church and has none of the notes of the Catholic Church.

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Fr. Le Floch, superior of the French Seminary in Rome, announced in 1926:
Quote

Don't you know that if the R&R downplays infallibility, then they will then perceive the truth to be an exaggeration of infallibility?

Yeah, sure, that "heresy" is the root of all the Church's problems.  Spoken like a true Old Catholic (or Gallican).  This French Gallicanism is in fact behind R&R theory.