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Poll

Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?

Become an R&R Traditionalist
12 (36.4%)
Become an Indult Traditionalist
5 (15.2%)
Become an NO Cath Conservative
9 (27.3%)
Become a very liberal Catholic
1 (3%)
Cease to practice Catholicism
6 (18.2%)

Total Members Voted: 27

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Author Topic: Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?  (Read 22077 times)

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Offline 2Vermont

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Re: Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?
« Reply #210 on: July 23, 2020, 09:40:21 AM »
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    • Quote from: XavierSem on July 23, 2020, 09:28:05 AM
    Struthio is probably considered an example of a dogmatic sedevacantist. Yet in another thread when I asked him what if sufficiently many years passed, he answered:

    "I would (have to) admit that my current assessment of the situation is or was wrong, as soon as the generation of the Robber Council will have passed away (which cannot happen while I have to continue in this life)."

    Edit: Just saw, "UDS is a logical corollary of DS." Ok. I would have thought the Dogmatic SVist would at least become non-dogmatic Svist in light of powerful evidence to the contrary. Also, a dogma can only be believed with infallible faith on the authority of the teaching Church. Otherwise, it would remain something like at most a theological conclusion only. But the Church has not ruled that Pope Francis is not the Pope. Ergo, there cannot be de fide certainty that such is the case.

    An analogy would be someone writing AGAINST the Immaculate Conception the day before it was defined. He may think he has good theological arguments for the same. But if it were dogmatically defined by the Church, and he wanted to remain Catholic, he would have to say, "I retract my opinion and submit to the infallible judgment of the teaching Church".

    In the same way, if it were proved, for e.g. (1) that SVism leads to EVism, and (2) EVism is heretical, a sedevacantist who intends to remain Catholic should retract what was never a dogma of faith, returning to the Authority of the Church that he thought had defected.
    Proved by whom?  You?  

    So to continue with your analogy if you truly believe it, until the Church defines that sedevacantism is a heresy, you shouldn't be asserting that sedevacantists are not Catholic unless they retract their position.
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    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?
    « Reply #211 on: July 23, 2020, 09:43:18 AM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on July 23, 2020, 09:22:23 AM
    We can't, especially given the tally currently shows 17 sedevacantists voted.  I didn't vote, so exactly who are these other 17 sedevacantists on this forum?

    It would be interesting if those sedevacantists that voted posted who they are (no need to say how they voted, just that they voted).

    I believe that seats are usurped, and I didn't vote.
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    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?
    « Reply #212 on: July 23, 2020, 09:51:38 AM »
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    • Quote from: XavierSem on July 23, 2020, 09:28:05 AM
    Struthio is probably considered an example of a dogmatic sedevacantist.

    One would have to be completely detached from reality to claim that there is a dogma saying that all who don't hold to the sedevacantist position are condemned. There simply is none.

    I don't know what to think about you, presenting your three alternatives DS, MS, UDS. Are you able to quote a single sedevacantist who says what your DS says?
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?
    « Reply #213 on: July 23, 2020, 09:52:59 AM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on July 23, 2020, 09:40:21 AM
    Proved by whom?  You?  

    So to continue with your analogy if you truly believe it, until the Church defines that sedevacantism is a heresy, you shouldn't be asserting that sedevacantists are not Catholic unless they retract their position.

    Yes, the dogmatic anti-sedevacantists labor under the same problems as the dogmatic sedevacantists ... but they will not admit this.  Again, as I said earlier, he's free to consider sedevacantism to be objectively heretical, but he's not free to denounce sedeavacantists as non-Catholics.
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    Offline CathMomof7

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    Re: Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?
    « Reply #214 on: July 23, 2020, 09:54:29 AM »
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    • Perhaps I am logically missing something---after all I am a woman.

    But if Francis is the Pope and if the VII church is the true church, then we all must accept and follow its teachings.  Is that true?

    If the VII Church teaches that a person can be saved regardless of his faith practice, then why would it matter if I remained a Catholic?

    Why would I drive 2 hours to find an indult Mass or FSSP just because I "preferred" a Tridentine Mass?  Couldn't I just find a "worship" community of like-minded people who believe in Jesus, don't accept birth control, feminism, ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity, or transgenderism? 

    Would I be required to be a parishioner where the current priest is a practicing ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ, where I must welcome the female Baptist minister give the sermon, where the priest actively promotes artificial insemination, where the priest supports the "transitioning" of children from one sex to another, just so I could be Catholic?  Must I follow, at all costs, a Pope who leads people to evil?

    I find these things completely illogical.  

    If that makes me a dogmatic sede to say that I would have a hard time accepting Protestantism in practice and the rest of the above listed evils, then so be it.  I'll take my chances with God.  May He have mercy on my soul.  
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?
    « Reply #215 on: July 23, 2020, 11:05:31 AM »
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    • Quote from: CathMomof7 on July 23, 2020, 09:54:29 AM
    Perhaps I am logically missing something---after all I am a woman.

    But if Francis is the Pope and if the VII church is the true church, then we all must accept and follow its teachings.  Is that true?
    The V2 church is not the True Church. We know this because, as you said.... "the VII Church teaches that a person can be saved regardless of his faith.."
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    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?
    « Reply #216 on: July 23, 2020, 12:34:42 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on July 23, 2020, 09:22:23 AM
    We can't, especially given the tally currently shows 17 sedevacantists voted.  I didn't vote, so exactly who are these other 17 sedevacantists on this forum?

    It would be interesting if those sedevacantists that voted posted who they are (no need to say how they voted, just that they voted).
    I didn't vote either.  It's a stupid question.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?
    « Reply #217 on: July 23, 2020, 01:32:47 PM »
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    • Quote from: Clemens Maria on July 23, 2020, 12:34:42 PM
    I didn't vote either.  It's a stupid question.

    Yes, depending on your perspective, the answer is N/A.  As I said, it would be like asking a faithful Catholic, "what would you do if you found out that the dogma of the Holy Trinity was wrong?"

    To quote the Robot from Lost in Space, "that does not compute; that does not compute".



    I did respond because IF I found that to be the case, and I believe that the Holy Ghost guides the Church, I would become an NO Catholic fighting the excesses, abuses, and misinterpretations of Vatican II from within the Church.

    It's easier for me to believe that Religious Liberty is correct Catholic doctrine than that the Church would teach grave error to the faithful in an Ecuмenical Council.

    It's like the famous story about St. Thomas.  When his fellow monks told him that there were pigs flying outside, St. Thomas went to take a look.  They ridiculed him for being so gullible.  But St. Thomas' response was:  "“I would rather believe that pigs can fly than believe that my brethren could lie.”

    Similarly, I would rather believe that pigs have religious liberty than that Holy Mother Church would lie and mislead.  Then, if I was wrong, and I met God at my judgment, I would respond with great peace of soul to God, "I based my beliefs on what the Church that you founded taught.  I trusted your Church."
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?
    « Reply #218 on: July 23, 2020, 01:41:15 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on July 23, 2020, 01:32:47 PM
    I did respond because IF I found that to be the case, and I believe that the Holy Ghost guides the Church, I would become an NO Catholic fighting the excesses, abuses, and misinterpretations of Vatican II from within the Church.
    Why did you respond? You don't consider yourself a sedevacantist.    
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    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?
    « Reply #219 on: July 23, 2020, 01:58:44 PM »
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    • The OP question cannot be answered because it makes no sense. I wouldn't be sedevacantist if I thought there were a real possibility that it were wrong. It's like asking a Catholic, "What would you do if Scientology were proved to be true?" If I could come up with a serious answer to that question, I would not really be Catholic in the first place.
    .
    In any case, with sedevacantism, most people arrive at that idea more because of the lack of any alternative explanation for what has happened since the death of Pius XII. A real pope can't proclaim heresy at Vatican 2, can't approve the evil 1983 code of canon law, can't impose the new "Mass" on the Church, can't canonize evil people like Mother Theresa or Paul VI, and can't teach modernism. So what's left? Clearly they are not popes, since the alternative is impossible. And sure enough, even a brief glance at canon law, Church history and the teaching of all the Fathers, theologians and Doctors of the Church confirms what was already obvious, namely that 1) a heretic cannot validly hold office in the Church, and that 2) if a prelate in the Church publicly professes heresy, he automatically loses both his membership in the Church and of course his authority too.
    .
    How about we turn this around? What would you do, XavierSem, if it were proved that the papal claimants since the death of Pius XII have not been valid popes?
    .
    Come to think of it, what would you do if one of your "popes" made a law that people living in unrepentant adultery can receive Holy Communion? Oh wait ...
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    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?
    « Reply #220 on: July 23, 2020, 02:06:10 PM »
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    • Quote from: XavierSem on July 23, 2020, 08:56:39 AM
    If someone sincerely believes this and would do those things upon being proved incorrect, I'm not going to try to dissaude him from SVism, until he admits he would become an Indult Traditionalist, if Svism were proved false. SVism is easily proved false, btw.

    There are two rock solid arguments against it, both 62 year SVism and single Pope Svism. But I won't go there till sedes get this right.
    .
    I feel like I am in fourth grade again and we can't go out to recess until some kid can recite his three times multiplication table without making a mistake. :laugh1:
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?
    « Reply #221 on: July 23, 2020, 02:11:28 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on July 23, 2020, 01:41:15 PM
    Why did you respond? You don't consider yourself a sedevacantist.    

    No, I have a more nuanced position, but for the purposes of his poll question, I would lump myself in there also based on the principles I hold.  He used the generic term "sede-ism", which most of the R&R use to lump all variants of the position together.

    I've called myself a sede-doubtist, but I'm a sede-doubtist because I agree with the sedevacantist principle that it is not possible for the Magisterium to fail in this way.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?
    « Reply #222 on: July 23, 2020, 02:21:05 PM »
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    • Quote from: XavierSem on July 23, 2020, 08:56:39 AM
    There are two rock solid arguments against it, both 62 year SVism and single Pope Svism. But I won't go there till sedes get this right.

    You just keep reasserting this claim without ever having proved it.

    I consider a 62-year period of sedevacante to be problematic, but not theologically impossible.

    I consider a defection of the Magisterium to be theologically impossible.

    Consequently, I find the prospects of the Magisterium defecting to far outweigh the difficulty posed by a 62-year interregnum.

    Again, this is a non-issue for a sedeprivationist type of position, or the Father Chazal position.
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    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?
    « Reply #223 on: July 23, 2020, 03:58:52 PM »
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    • XavierSem (by the way, are you the same Nishant who used to post here as user "Nishant"?) is missing the forest for the trees.  It's been said here before by others that if it were just a matter of a few doctrinal disagreements/ambiguities/difficulties then there would be no SSPX, no CMRI, no SSPV, no FSSP, no traditional movement whatsoever.  But the problems with V2 didn't immediately precipitate the trad movement.  It wasn't until the new "Mass" came out that it finally dawned on some Catholics that they couldn't go along with it all and that it was looking more and more like a new religion had been founded and given the title Catholic.  I have to admit that Francis Schuckardt was already calling it a sede vacante in 1967 so it wasn't like everyone figured it out at the same time.  It was just a gradual realization that the Novus Ordo wasn't Catholic.  And then people tried to figure out how best to explain it.  The best explanation I have heard so far is some form of sede vacante (SV or SP).  The idea that a pope could compel people to engage in non-Catholic worship is not credible.  But now with Frank it is even worse.  The "pope" himself worshipped pagan gods in the Vatican.  He is in open apostasy and still the Novus Ordo and R&R people cling to him.  It just goes to show what will happen when you believe that a heretic can be the Vicar of Christ.  Frank is the new Simon the Magician.
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    Offline Argentino

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    Re: Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?
    « Reply #224 on: July 23, 2020, 06:05:21 PM »
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    • Quote from: XavierSem on July 23, 2020, 09:20:58 AM
    Dogmatic Sedevacantism (DS): SVism is dogma. If you don't believe it, you are in heresy!

    Moderate Sedevacantism (MS): SVism is a personal opinion. The Church may confirm or reject it in future.

    Ultra-Dogmatic SVism (UDS): If the "dogma" of SVism is proven incorrect, I will simply leave the Catholic Church.

    Am I mistaken or are the persons here going even beyond DS to UDS? And I thought many were MSes.

    What do you think of a "dogmatic fact"?  Do you understand what that is, and its import?
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