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Poll

Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?

Become an R&R Traditionalist
12 (36.4%)
Become an Indult Traditionalist
5 (15.2%)
Become an NO Cath Conservative
9 (27.3%)
Become a very liberal Catholic
1 (3%)
Cease to practice Catholicism
6 (18.2%)

Total Members Voted: 27

Author Topic: Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?  (Read 23197 times)

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Offline Struthio

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Ahhh.  So earlier, you posted that an ecuмenical council was infallible, but I proved that wrong from actual article you posted.  Now you're using the term "general council" as opposed to "ecuмenical" to avoid the contradiction with NewAdvent.com?  I see your agenda.

I still hold that an ecuмenical council is infallible. And your heretical friend Viganò calls the robber council ecuмenical.

Offline Pax Vobis

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You got to check your logic. The Vatican Council does neither define that the Pope is infallible "if and only if" (but rather that the Pope is infallible "if"), nor does the Vatican Council define in which way a Pope has to confirm a general Council to be an infallible Council, nor does the Vatican Council define that nothing but a Pope or nothing but a Pope or a Council may be teaching infallibly.
A true council, guided by the Holy Ghost, such as Vatican 1, is not there to deceive, nor to be a legal quagmire of complexity.  We must take an infallible council as the word of God:  "If the pope fulfills x, y, and z, then he is infallible".  
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It is not left to the laity or clerics to "second guess" or to "re-interpret" what the Holy Ghost "left out" or "forgot to say".
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Any opinion or interpretation you have related to the above is of hubris alone.  It's the height of arrogance that you can criticize a doctrine in the way you do.  It is truly schismatic.


Offline Ladislaus

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"Pastoral magisterium" (i.e.  made up theological term) = fallible, not-protected-from-error=able-to-be-heresy theological opinion,  

And your distinction is equally "made up".  And you keep harping on infallibility and completely ignoring the problem for indefectibility.

I honestly have no idea what kind of HOLY Catholic Church you people believe in, that you can attribute grave error and destruction of souls to the Catholic Magisterium.  This borders on blasphemy.  Archbishop Lefebvre himself admitted the principle that this is not possible due to the protection of the Church and of the Papacy by the Holy Ghost.  He simply didn't know what the answer was.  Archbishop Lefebvre NEVER promoted this perverse R&R that we have today which attributes these horrors to the Catholic Magisterium.

You also all arguably fall under Trent's anathema against those who claim that the Rites used by the Church can be defective.

Offline Ladislaus

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Viganò has confessed 50 years of worship of men! He even admits to have known that the Council is heretical, but suppressed his knowledge of truth out of love for men.

That's not what he said.  He said that for years he believed that it was a question of ambiguity and that it could be interpreted in an orthodox manner applying the hermeneutic of continuity.

Offline Pax Vobis

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Formulae were a person act and was not some teaching issued to the Universal Church.
Yet V2 was not a teaching/binding act of the Church, but a pastoral/advisory/novel/fallible magisterial legal trick. 


Offline Pax Vobis

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I still hold that an ecuмenical council is infallible. 
New Advent disagrees with you.  Your lack of theological distinctions sinks your arguments.

Offline Struthio

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A true council, guided by the Holy Ghost, such as Vatican 1, is not there to deceive, nor to be a legal quagmire of complexity.  We must take an infallible council as the word of God:  "If the pope fulfills x, y, and z, then he is infallible".  
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It is not left to the laity or clerics to "second guess" or to "re-interpret" what the Holy Ghost "left out" or "forgot to say".
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Any opinion or interpretation you have related to the above is of hubris alone.  It's the height of arrogance that you can criticize a doctrine in the way you do.  It is truly schismatic.


If a Council says "if X is greater than Y then X is an A" then that doesn't imply that X is not an A if X is equal or less than Y. Basic logic!

You can't be taken seriously!  :fryingpan: :jester:


Offline Ladislaus

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Trent, Chapter IX, Canon VII --

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If any one shall say, that the ceremonies, vestments, and outward signs, of which the Catholic Church makes use in the celebration of masses, are incentives to impiety, rather than offices of piety; let him be anathema.


Offline Ladislaus

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New Advent disagrees with you.  Your lack of theological distinctions sinks your arguments.

No, Pax, his understanding is the correct one.  You have it wrong.  I cited the part of CE which clearly states that an Ecuмenical Council must be considered infallible due to the protection of the Holy Ghost promised to the Church ... even beyond the strict scope of papal infallibility.  You R&R constantly ignore this and believe that the Magistiirum can become thoroughly corrupt and harmful to souls.  While allowance can be made for good faith due to the confusion of the times, this particular articulation of R&R is in fact unquestionably objectively heretical.  You need to stop droning on about the limits of strict infallibility and realize what you're saying, that the Magisterium and Universal Discipline of the Church can defect.

Offline Struthio

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New Advent disagrees with you.  Your lack of theological distinctions sinks your arguments.

Do you want to say that an ecuмenical Council is not a general Council?

Offline Struthio

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That's not what he said.  He said that for years he believed that it was a question of ambiguity and that it could be interpreted in an orthodox manner applying the hermeneutic of continuity.

Here's what he said:

Quote from: Viganò
I confess it with serenity and without controversy: I was one of the many people who, despite many perplexities and fears which today have proven to be absolutely legitimate, trusted the authority of the Hierarchy with unconditional obedience. In reality, I think that many people, including myself, did not initially consider the possibility that there could be a conflict between obedience to an order of the Hierarchy and fidelity to the Church herself. What made tangible this unnatural, indeed I would even say perverse, separation between the Hierarchy and the Church, between obedience and fidelity, was certainly this most recent Pontificate.

His conscience told him that there was a problem with his "fidelity to the Church herself." And he suppressed his conscience.


Offline Pax Vobis

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And your distinction is equally "made up".  And you keep harping on infallibility and completely ignoring the problem for indefectibility.
There was never a "pastoral council" before V2.  Ergo, V2 is a novelty, regardless of who was in attendance.  As New Advent said, the ecuмenical nature of a council is not dependent upon the cardinals/bishops present but upon the pope being involved, in a dogmatic, infallible way.  
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Ergo, an ecuмenical council does not exist when "the pope with all the Cardinals/Bishops are present" (as at V2) but ONLY when the council issues dogmatic, infallible decrees.  Thus, V2 is not ecuмenical....per New Advent. 


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I honestly have no idea what kind of HOLY Catholic Church you people believe in, that you can attribute grave error and destruction of souls to the Catholic Magisterium.  This borders on blasphemy.  Archbishop Lefebvre himself admitted the principle that this is not possible due to the protection of the Church and of the Papacy by the Holy Ghost.  He simply didn't know what the answer was.  Archbishop Lefebvre NEVER promoted this perverse R&R that we have today which attributes these horrors to the Catholic Magisterium.
+Vigano explained it quit clearly.  If you mix what he said with the above, it makes sense.  1) V2 was doctrinal so it was not ecuмenical.  2) Ecuмenical does not refer to "who was present at the council" but to what extent doctrine "is made present (i.e. binding) to all catholics".  If doctrine is not involved in a definitive/binding way, then such teaching is not ecuмenical.  3) V2 was a novel/pastoral council which did not doctrinally/bindingly/definitively nor authoritatively command ANY catholic to follow error.
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V2 was a pastoral trick; a conciliar ruse; a diabolical deception, which is extremely theologically explainable, except to those who, because of emotion, fail to use their reason to see the facts.


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You also all arguably fall under Trent's anathema against those who claim that the Rites used by the Church can be defective.
The V2 rites of the mass/sacraments are optional and are not protected by Trent's anathema's.  I can't believe that you would even think they are.

Offline Pax Vobis

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I cited the part of CE which clearly states that an Ecuмenical Council must be considered infallible due to the protection of the Holy Ghost promised to the Church
This applies to all pre-V2 ecuмenical councils, but V2 flipped the script.  Your quote is pre-V2, therefore it could not anticipate V2's theological, pastoral deception.

Offline Pax Vobis

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If a Council says "if X is greater than Y then X is an A" then that doesn't imply that X is not an A if X is equal or less than Y. Basic logic!
There are plenty of theological debates in Catholic history that have arisen from "theological inconsistencies" due to logic.  The only doctrine/dogma is what the Church has defined.  All else is still theory.

Offline Pax Vobis

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Let's re-look at how +Vigano explained V2:  (From his interview with Phil Lawler):  https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/vigano-interview-with-phil-lawler/
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Lawler: First, what are you saying about Vatican II? That things have gone downhill fast since then is certainly true. But if the whole Council is a problem, how did that happen? How do we reconcile that with what we believe about the inerrancy of the magisterium? How were all the Council fathers deceived? Even if only some parts of the Council (e.g. Nostra Aetate, Dignitatis Humanae) are problematical, we still face the same questions. Many of us have been saying for years that the “spirit of Vatican II” is in error. Are you now saying that this phony liberal “spirit” does accurately reflect the work of the Council?
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Archbishop Vigano: I do not think that it is necessary to demonstrate that the Council represents a problem: the simple fact that we are raising this question about Vatican II and not about Trent or Vatican I seems to me to confirm a fact that is obvious and recognized by everyone. In reality, even those who defend the Council with swords drawn find themselves doing so apart from all the other previous ecuмenical councils, of which not even one was ever said to be a pastoral council.
Vigano starts off by saying that V2 is the first, and only, pastoral council in Church history.  It is the only ecuмenical council (i.e. in the sense that the pope and all bishops were present) that did not define doctrine.  If you can't admit this anomaly, you're dishonest.  
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It is a council that, differently from all those that preceded it, called itself a pastoral council, declaring that it did not want to propose any new doctrine, but which in fact created a distinction between before and after, between a dogmatic council and a pastoral council, between unequivocal canons and empty talk, between anathema sit and winking at the world.
Again, V2 was different than all other previous councils IN THE HISTORY OF THE CHURCH.  So if you compare it to any others, you're wrong.
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In this sense, I believe that the problem of the infallibility of the Magisterium (the inerrancy you mention is properly a quality of Sacred Scripture) does not even arise, because the Legislator, that is, the Roman Pontiff around whom the Council was convened, solemnly and clearly affirmed that he did not want to use the doctrinal authority which he could have exercised if he wanted. 

+Vigano clearly says that V2 was not infallible and is not inerrant.  Thus it is fallible.  It has nothing to do with doctrinal authority, nor can it claim protection from the Holy Ghost.
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There is another equivocation that must be clarified. If on the one hand John XXIII and Paul VI declared that they did not want to commit the Council to the definition of new doctrines and wanted it to limit itself to being only pastoral, on the other hand it is true that externally—mediatically or in the media, we would say today—the emphasis given to its acts was enormous
. In other words, LEGALLY and DOCTRINALLY, the Church did not TEACH V2.  But only through the MEDIA and through LIBERAL/COMMUNIST bishops/priests was the council given "emphasis...that was enormous".


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This emphasis (...by the media...) served to convey the idea of a presumed doctrinal authority, of an implicit magisterial infallibility, even though these were clearly excluded right from the beginning. 

This is the key phrase in the entire interview.  V2 was "sold" to the laity by the media and (later) by the communist/mason bishops/priests.


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If this emphasis occurred, it was in order to allow the more or less heterodox instances to be perceived as authoritative and thus to be accepted by the clergy and the faithful. 

Again, +Vigano says that the heterodox/unorthodox/heretical ideals were PERCEIVED AS AUTHORITATIVE and thus accepted BECAUSE OF THE EMPHASIS BY THE MEDIA (and later, by the emphasis of communist bishops/priests).  Perceived = diabolical disorientation = smoke of satan = not church teaching.


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 Let us recall that Catholics do not worship a Council, neither Vatican II nor Trent, but rather the Most Holy Trinity, the One True God; they do not venerate a conciliar declaration or a post-synodal exhortation, but rather the Truth that these acts of the Magisterium convey
A good conclusion by +Vigano.  V2 is not some supra-council that can contradict all previous Church teaching.  It was pastoral only; not protected by the Holy Ghost because only doctrine is protected.