Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Poll

Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?

Become an R&R Traditionalist
12 (36.4%)
Become an Indult Traditionalist
5 (15.2%)
Become an NO Cath Conservative
9 (27.3%)
Become a very liberal Catholic
1 (3%)
Cease to practice Catholicism
6 (18.2%)

Total Members Voted: 27

Author Topic: Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?  (Read 22972 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Meg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6791
  • Reputation: +3468/-2999
  • Gender: Female
Because if sedevacantism is true, after sixty two years, there is no Church left on earth, having not only no pope, but no Bishops with authority from God through the pope. All that is left is a handful of laymen playing make believe and praying the rosary. Whenever the vocal sedes talk about how R&R would be a defection, I feel they are deaf, dumb, and blind, as if the Church for all intents and purposes ceasing to exist upon earth is not also a defection? And a greater one. For in the R&R model, faults as it may have, there is at least a Church to point to.

Well said.

Just my opinion: the sedes and their fellow travellers don't care if there's a Church, or not. The Sedes have their private faith and their soapbox, and that seems good enough for them. No Church needed.
"It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

~St. Robert Bellarmine
De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

Offline Pax Vobis

  • Supporter
  • *****
  • Posts: 12751
  • Reputation: +8136/-2505
  • Gender: Male
Quote
The Divine constitution of the Church and the promises of Divine assistance made by her Founder, guarantee her inerrancy, in matters pertaining to faith and morals, independently of the pope's infallibility

From earlier in your link.  Guess you didn't like this part, or you didn't understand it.
.
.
Papal headship the formal element of councils
It is the action of the pope that makes the councils ecuмenical. That action is the exercise of his office of supreme teacher and ruler of the Church.
.
Wait...so if the pope doesn't exercise his office as supreme teacher (which he didn't in V2), then is V2 even ecuмenical?  According to this article, no.
.
Its necessity results from the fact that no authority is commensurate with the whole Church except that of the pope; he alone can bind all the faithful.
.
V2 didn't bind the faithful to anything.  So it's not ecuмenical?  Sounds like it's not.
.
Its sufficiency is equally manifest: when the pope has spoken ex cathedra to make his own the decisions of any council, regardless of the number of its members nothing further can be wanted to make them binding on the whole Church.
.
The pope didn't speak ex cathedra, and nothing was binding on the whole Church (which is why they used the novel term 'pastoral' because V2 was a novel council).  Therefore, it's not ecuмenical.  V2 is the most unique council in history, except having parallels with the famous "Robber Council" that was afterwards condemned, as +Vigano pointed out.


Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
  • *****
  • Posts: 47259
  • Reputation: +28008/-5228
  • Gender: Male
Just my opinion: the sedes and their fellow travellers don't care if there's a Church, or not. 

It's one slander after another from you, Meg.  It's precisely because they care deeply about the Church that they have been compelled to take the position that they do.  Otherwise, if they didn't care, they'd just take the easy way out and go R&R or Motu.

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
  • *****
  • Posts: 47259
  • Reputation: +28008/-5228
  • Gender: Male
You could argue that that Arian heresy is an example of a prolonged R&R situation (let's not get into the weeds on the "kind" of R&R, just a general point).  You had a weak, ineffective, heretical-condoning pope, you had (according to historical accounts) 98-99% of the catholic clerics/population infected with the Arian heresy, you had self-espoused "arian-catholic priests" arguing with "I-agree-with-Arianism-but-not-your-kind" priests, and then you had "St Athanasius against the world", the only (maybe a handful of others) cleric who was truly orthodox.

This is different, Pax.  With Vatican II we have the putative Magisterium actively undermining the faith and we have public liturgical rites that are offensive to God.  This is not just a lot of heretic bishops with a weak pope.  Of course, Bergoglio is a ring-leader and not just a weak pope who gives in to the Modernists out of weakness.  I would argue that Pius XII would more fit the bill of an analogy with Liberius.

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
  • *****
  • Posts: 47259
  • Reputation: +28008/-5228
  • Gender: Male
During that time, it was not a question of where the true Church was any more than it was when the Roman See was vacant.

Yes, in one sense it was a question of attempting to discern where the Church was.  We had not only competing popes, but each one set up a competing hierarchy.  And of course, ubi petrus, ibi ecclesia ("where is Peter, there is the Church") turned into "Where is Peter?  Where is the Church?"

Difference there was that we did not have any of the Popes undermining the faith itself during that time.


Offline Pax Vobis

  • Supporter
  • *****
  • Posts: 12751
  • Reputation: +8136/-2505
  • Gender: Male

Quote
With Vatican II we have the putative Magisterium actively undermining the faith and we have public liturgical rites that are offensive to God. 
And Arianism didn’t actively undermine the Faith?  Yes. Were there not Arian masses and sacrilegious communions that saints suffered martyrdom instead of participating in?  Yes.  
.
If a pope is involved in the deception vs just weak, does it change the fact that 98% of the hierarchy were Arian just like 98% are now modernist?  As long as the pope does not attempt to bind the faithful to error, his heresy is has no bearing on the Church’s inerrancy, just like the 98% of Arian bishops don’t either.  

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
  • *****
  • Posts: 47259
  • Reputation: +28008/-5228
  • Gender: Male
Therefore, it's not ecuмenical.

Whether or not a Council decides to issue a solemn definition, the understanding of the Church has always been that when a moral universality of the bishops (i.e. nearly all of them) get together and teach in union with the Pope, that the teaching is protected from any substantial grave error by the Holy Spirit.

R&R completely dismiss or ignore that the Magsiterium OVERALL is guided and protected by the Holy Spirit.  That doesn't mean there can't be a slight error here or there, but nothing substantial that would ever endanger souls or the faith.

From the CE article cited earlier:
Quote
The infallibility proper to the pope is not, however, the only formal adequate ground of the council's infallibility. The Divine constitution of the Church and the promises of Divine assistance made by her Founder, guarantee her inerrancy, in matters pertaining to faith and morals, independently of the pope's infallibility: a fallible pope supporting, and supported by, a council, would still pronounce infallible decisions.

It's because of the overall "promises of Divine assitance made by her Founder" to the Church that a legitimate Ecuмenical Council is not capable of practically destroying the Church.  It's because of the indefectiblity of the Church.

Offline forlorn

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2526
  • Reputation: +1041/-1106
  • Gender: Male
Well said.

Just my opinion: the sedes and their fellow travellers don't care if there's a Church, or not. The Sedes have their private faith and their soapbox, and that seems good enough for them. No Church needed.
Hah! That's rich. R&R will happily ignore and reject everything the Church says or does, condemn it, deride it, say it's full of heretics, ignore all the laws and rites it promulgates, but then you have the audacity to accuse others of "not needing the Church"?
Ridiculous. 


Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
  • *****
  • Posts: 47259
  • Reputation: +28008/-5228
  • Gender: Male
Hah! That's rich. R&R will happily ignore and reject everything the Church says or does, condemn it, deride it, say it's full of heretics, ignore all the laws and rites it promulgates, but then you have the audacity to accuse others of "not needing the Church"?
Ridiculous.

THIS x1000.  R&R need "the Church" so they can put Bergoglio's picture in the vestibule and not scare away any prospective new parishioners and their contribution to collection baskets ... so they can build $50-$100 million dollar complexes.

Offline Argentino

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 177
  • Reputation: +68/-62
  • Gender: Male
Yes, in one sense it was a question of attempting to discern where the Church was.  We had not only competing popes, but each one set up a competing hierarchy.  And of course, ubi petrus, ibi ecclesia ("where is Peter, there is the Church") turned into "Where is Peter?  Where is the Church?"

Difference there was that we did not have any of the Popes undermining the faith itself during that time.

Do you have any imprimatured work that states what you are stating....that people were wondering if they were part of the Catholic Church or not?

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
  • *****
  • Posts: 47259
  • Reputation: +28008/-5228
  • Gender: Male
Do you have any imprimatured work that states what you are stating....that people were wondering if they were part of the Catholic Church or not?

That's not what I'm saying at all.  They didn't know who the real pope was and to whom they had to owe obedience and whose Magisterium they would have to submit to if it were to teach.

You do realize that material error does not exclude from membership in the Church, right?

That's another reason, BTW, that R&R is much more pernicious and potentially harmful to the faith than sedevacantism.  Sedevacantists at least formally acknowledge that they have a duty to submit to Church Magisterium, whereas the R&R dispute this.  So, if they're wrong, the sedevacantists are in material error, but the R&R are in danger of formal error due to their attitudes toward Church authority.


Offline forlorn

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2526
  • Reputation: +1041/-1106
  • Gender: Male
Is that the main gripe then?  Was secularization commanded under pain of sin?  If not, that has nothing to do with the magisterium but with political policy and the Vatican govt.  You can be in a secularized country and still save your soul.  Is it ideal?  No, but secularization was already happening to all catholic countries since the 1600s, due to Protestantism and Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ.
Would it not be sinful for a politician to vote to secularise his (theretofore Catholic) country?

And yet that's what the pope ordered him to do. Not just by his private opinion, but by his apostolic authority. 

Quote
And We, by the apostolic authority given Us by Christ and in union with the Fathers, approve, decree and establish them in the Holy Spirit and command that they be promulgated for the glory of God.
 

Offline Pax Vobis

  • Supporter
  • *****
  • Posts: 12751
  • Reputation: +8136/-2505
  • Gender: Male
Quote
the understanding of the Church has always been that when a moral universality of the bishops (i.e. nearly all of them) get together and teach in union with the Pope, that the teaching is protected from any substantial grave error by the Holy Spirit.
Agree, but said "teaching" has always been (in 100% of past ecuмenical councils) in the form of infallible, dogmatic decrees.  You can't imply "teaching" to V2, because it wasn't dogmatic, nor did it claim to be, nor did it "teach" anything binding.
.
Your idea (as well as other's) that a non-dogmatic council is protected from the Holy Ghost is as novel as V2.  The problem lies not in you (or others); the problem lies in you projecting the same authority/protection to V2 as to Nicea.  Considering the evidence, this is ludicrous.  This is what +Vigano was saying...that V2 used the implication of an ecuмenical council (i.e. the pope with all the bishops) to trick people into accepting error when such "pastoral novelties" were not binding.  
.
Satan = magic.  Magic = imaginary.  Imaginary doctrine = V2.  This is exactly what Christ warned us about:  "There will be signs and wonders..."
.

Quote
R&R completely dismiss or ignore that the Magsiterium OVERALL is guided and protected by the Holy Spirit.  That doesn't mean there can't be a slight error here or there, but nothing substantial that would ever endanger souls or the faith.
The only proof you have ever provided for this is Fenton's opinion.  I consider his opinion a novelty, non-traditional and unproven.  If you can prove this, i'm all ears.
.

Quote
It's because of the overall "promises of Divine assitance made by her Founder" to the Church that a legitimate Ecuмenical Council is not capable of practically destroying the Church.  It's because of the indefectiblity of the Church.
This is, again, an opinion.  Those who argue that a pope cannot fall into heresy (which is an opinion) usually also argue that the Church's indefectibility applies to fallible statements.  1) This is an opinion, which contradicts Church history.  2) This is an opinion which elevates indefectibility to a secondary infallibility, which further 3) waters down the primacy of the pope, by making his personal infallibility less relevant, because even if he's not speaking infallibly, "don't worry, the Church can't be wrong, because She's indefectible."  I don't buy it (because of Fenton pushed it in the 50s) and the idea is only recent.


Offline Pax Vobis

  • Supporter
  • *****
  • Posts: 12751
  • Reputation: +8136/-2505
  • Gender: Male

Quote
Would it not be sinful for a politician to vote to secularise his (theretofore Catholic) country?
Catholicism is not defined by its political power, or lack thereof.  The Vatican States itself once had much power and authority but was forced to give that up.  Political change does not affect doctrine (in most cases).  Secularization does not affect Truth or Church dogma.  What you're describing is obviously not good, and not pro-Catholic but it's not necessarily anti-doctrine.


Quote
And yet that's what the pope ordered him to do. Not just by his private opinion, but by his apostolic authority. 
i would be interested to read more, but the above still applies.

Offline Quo vadis Domine

  • Supporter
  • *****
  • Posts: 4750
  • Reputation: +2897/-667
  • Gender: Male
That's not what I'm saying at all.  They didn't know who the real pope was and to whom they had to owe obedience and whose Magisterium they would have to submit to if it were to teach.

You do realize that material error does not exclude from membership in the Church, right?

That's another reason, BTW, that R&R is much more pernicious and potentially harmful to the faith than sedevacantism.  Sedevacantists at least formally acknowledge that they have a duty to submit to Church Magisterium, whereas the R&R dispute this.  So, if they're wrong, the sedevacantists are in material error, but the R&R are in danger of formal error due to their attitudes toward Church authority.
Excellent! Very nicely put.
For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?