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Author Topic: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!  (Read 6997 times)

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Online Ladislaus

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Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
« Reply #135 on: December 31, 2019, 01:59:34 PM »
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  • Ha, ha, ha.

    Just try to get married, your child baptized, confirmed or what ever in a SSPX, FSSP or ICKSP church/chapel after you announce you are sedeplenist/sedevacantist.

    FSSP will not even allow the godfather/godmother to be members of SSPX or to be members of a sedevacantist church.

    SSPX bans sedevacantists from receiving the Sacraments?

    FSSP won't allow SSPX godparents?  But ... but ... XavierSem claims that the SSPX is in full communion with Rome.

    Offline songbird

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    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #136 on: December 31, 2019, 04:18:20 PM »
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  • Is Rome in full Communion with Christ?  The people have been abandoned!  For the first time in the History of the Church, we have no sacraments! No Holy Orders, therefore no sacraments, but maybe Baptism, Marriage.  We did not abandon Rome or the system That Christ commanded. But those who claim to be with Christ are not.  We are abandoned!  We have no Catholic Ruler besides no sacraments.


    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #137 on: December 31, 2019, 05:04:43 PM »
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  • modern mystics were given a vision of what happened in the Vatican in the 70s; they saw the Holy Father grieving and weeping, and being forced and threatened by his Cardinals to sign letters; then put whatever content they liked in it later on; and so on. If only more Catholics believed and knew this, our judgment of things may be different.
    Why would anyone believe something so preposterous? You're saying Paul VI was secretly a traditional Catholic who believed just like all of us on this forum, but he was "forced" (how??) to sign docuмents that had things added to them later on? And he never came out publicly and corrected the docuмents that had been falsified? Paul VI gave speeches at the United Nations saying the UN was the only hope of mankind. What happened there? Did he write his own notes giving maybe a resounding appeal for the acceptance of the Kingdom of Christ in all nations, and when he got up to the podium he realized his notes had been replaced with an apostatic speech excluding Christ from the public discourse, and just shrugged his shoulders and said, "Oh well, I'll just read what these notes say here. It's just as good as my sermon."
    .
    Our Lady of Quito's prophecy about the pope being a prisoner in the Vatican doesn't refer to Paul VI. Far from being a prisoner of any kind, Paul VI traveled freely all over the world in his own jet aircraft. Rather, the prophecy was fulfilled in Pius IX, who became a prisoner in the Vatican City when the freemasons stole the papal states. Pius IX could not walk on Italian soil after that without that action being legally considered a recognition of the masonic government, so since the Vatican City is surrounded by Italian soil like an island in the ocean, and airplanes didn't exist yet, it wasn't physically possible for him to leave the Vatican without giving recognition to the masonic theft of the papal lands, making him a prisoner in his own house serving a life sentence. Pope Leo XIII, St. Pius X, and Benedict XV, and Pius XI were in a similar situation. For half a century, being elected pope was a life prison sentence in the Vatican City. The situation only ended in the 1920's when Pius XI signed a concordat with Mussolini.
    .
    EDIT: slight wording modifications

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #138 on: December 31, 2019, 05:23:47 PM »
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  • To me the prisoner or exiled pope sounds a lot like the Siri Theory.

    Here's a prophecy from Rudolfo Gilthier, a monk from the 1700s:
    Quote
    Rome will lose its Sceptre through following False Prophets. The Pope will be taken Prisoner by his attendants. The Church will be held hostage, and after a short time there will be no more Pope.

    Rome will lose its scepter, its authority, through the following of false prophets (false teachers)?  Siri was cast aside, kicked, out, and reportedly kept under close watch by some of his personal attendants.  Sine the death of this hostage pope, there have been no more popes.

    Then there's the prophecy from St. Nicholas of Fluh that things would get so bad that the Apostolic Succession would appear to have ceased.

    Offline Matto

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    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #139 on: December 31, 2019, 05:26:03 PM »
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  • Why would anyone believe something so preposterous? You're saying he was secretly a traditional Catholic like those of us on this website, but he was "forced" (how??) to sign docuмents that had things added to them later on? And he never came out publicly and corrected the docuмents that had been falsified?

    Not that I believe it, but I do not think it is preposterous at all. It makes perfect sense. To think that nefarious people gained control of the Vatican and forced the Pope to do things according to their designs. Do you think it would be preposterous for world leaders (Jews such as Soros, who is the Jew everyone names as a meddler in world affairs for some reason, or the Rothschild family who supposedly own nearly all of the world's central banks [I am not an expert on world affairs by any means]) to threaten the Pope to go along with their dictates or else . . . they would kill a lot of people, perhaps with nuclear weapons? I would expect that is what the world leaders would do instead of allowing the Pope to try to oppose their agenda. Some claim the threat was to reveal Paul VI's alleged personal sins, but this would not explain the other Novus Ordo popes as a continual threat of war and persecution over various papacies would.

    But the captive popes makes perfect sense. If you were a rich satanist Jew who wanted to rule the world and usher in the reign of the antichrist, wouldn't the papacy be a prime target?
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #140 on: December 31, 2019, 05:29:32 PM »
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  • Is it possible that Montini was being blackmailed?  I think so.  It doesn't seem likely, but's possible.  Perhaps they were blackmailing him over his sodomite activities.  In which case, his actions would not have been free and therefore invalid.

    I'm not averse to such an explanation.  I don't think it entirely likely given his background, etc., but I can't rule it out.

    What I AM opposed to is the attempt by R&R to attribute the evils of the Conciliar Magisterium and the New Mass to the legitimate papal authority.

    Offline Matto

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    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #141 on: December 31, 2019, 05:33:30 PM »
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  • Is it possible that Montini was being blackmailed?  I think so.  It doesn't seem likely, but's possible.  

    I don't know why you would say it is not likely, when you have affirmed belief or at least sympathy towards the Siri thesis, that he was elected pope but stepped down because he was blackmailed by threats of war or persecution, basically the same thing. If they did that to Siri, wouldn't they do the same to any pope if they had not lost the power?

    Kind of like how there is the idea that whenever a president is elected, the "deep state" shows him footage of the Kennedy Assassination and tells the new president that that would happen to him if he tried to do anything good like oppose the federal reserve as Kennedy did. I would expect that the Vatican has its own "deep state".
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.

    Offline Matto

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    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #142 on: December 31, 2019, 06:12:50 PM »
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  • . . . that would happen to him if he tried to do anything good like oppose the federal reserve as Kennedy did.

    To explain, of all the reasons I have heard as to why Kennedy was αssαssιnαtҽd, the one that made the most sense to me was that he had the US Treasury issue money independent of the federal reserve and wanted to print more and this is one of the reasons why he was killed. They say the bankers killed him and as soon as he died they confiscated all the non-federal reserve currency and stopped printing it. Like everything I have learned, I have no idea what is true and what were lies, so I would not be surprised if I was wrong.
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #143 on: December 31, 2019, 07:25:59 PM »
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  • I don't know why you would say it is not likely, when you have affirmed belief or at least sympathy towards the Siri thesis, ...

    Only because Montini had a Modernist past that makes it seem like he need not have been blackmailed.

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #144 on: January 01, 2020, 08:33:52 AM »
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  • To me the prisoner or exiled pope sounds a lot like the Siri Theory.

    Here's a prophecy from Rudolfo Gilthier, a monk from the 1700s:
    Rome will lose its scepter, its authority, through the following of false prophets (false teachers)?  Siri was cast aside, kicked, out, and reportedly kept under close watch by some of his personal attendants.  Sine the death of this hostage pope, there have been no more popes.

    Then there's the prophecy from St. Nicholas of Fluh that things would get so bad that the Apostolic Succession would appear to have ceased.
    .
    But you do agree that the idea of the pope being a prisoner in the Vatican was definitely and clearly personified by Pius IX and his successors through Pius XI, right?
    .
    What I find preposterous is not so much that a pope would be threatened by masons. In fact, I'm sure popes have been threatened by masons for centuries now. But that's not what is being suggested here. What's being suggested is that Paul VI was secretly a traditional Catholic just like everyone on this forum, and yet for 13 years preached heresy and systematically destroyed the Church in every possible way because he was under some form of duress, without ever attempting to escape that duress, signal for help, or simply go against it and preach the Faith anyway. Assuming a true pope could knowingly preach heresy out of fear in the first place (something I think is contrary to Catholic theology), he would have been in visible discomfort during his public appearances, especially during his speeches in which he spoke against the Faith. Knowing he was burying himself in the deepest part of hell by his apostasy would have slowly taken its toll on him, and he would probably have cracked under the strain and the fear of whatever he was being threatened with, too, and maybe had a nervous breakdown or something similar. Not to mention, as I said, he would have made some attempt to get out of the power of his enemies.
    .
    That's why I find the whole scenario preposterous. To say that someone could live a life so radically against what he believed for so long, without the slightest show of cracking or dropping hints or asking for help, especially when there isn't a shred of evidence to indicate any of it, really involves rejecting the most fundamental concepts of reality and common sense. It's almost like saying we are living in a Truman Show-like world, or a matrix simulation. Can I definitively prove that those ideas are false? Probably not, but they really can't be entertained as possible without rejecting the most basic human ideas about reality. I think the notion of Paul VI as "trad prisoner pope" is about on the same level.

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #145 on: January 01, 2020, 08:53:02 AM »
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  • Siri was cast aside, kicked, out, and reportedly kept under close watch by some of his personal attendants.
    .
    I've heard this claim so many times, but I've never seen a shred of evidence for it. Have you?
    .
    It's not Siri was living in some bunker after the election of Roncalli. He was seen in public, operated his diocese. He could easily, at any time, have picked up his phone and called the police and told them he was being threatened by his assistants, or that they wouldn't let him leave his house. He could have simply walked out his front door, hailed a cab, and gotten the hell out of town. He could have done any number of things very easily if he were the true pope and knew it. The fact that he didn't is hard to reconcile with the idea that he was pope.
    .
    So many popes have been put to death, put in dungeons, tortured both physically and mentally in every possible way. If Siri were pope, why would he have behaved so radically differently? Wouldn't he have the graces of state of all his predecessors?
    .
    If he were the true pope, allowing John XXIII to present himself to the world as the true pope, and allowing the world to be deceived by that, would be an act of schism if he knew that he himself were the true pope. Maybe he was okay with burning in hell forever to avoid persecution in this world; he wouldn't be the first. But it just seems hard to believe.
    .
    The only theory I have ever heard for why Siri would sell his soul in such an awful manner is that his family was threatened with murder if he announced himself as pope. But that would be martyrdom if it were carried out. Couldn't he call his family up, tell them to prepare their souls for a glorious crown, and then give a press conference telling the world how he was elected in the 1958 conclave?
    .
    While I do agree that the 1958 conclave is extremely suspicious and anomalous, I just don't think the idea of "Pope Siri" living out his days as a secret pope is a very adequate answer, and seems to create greater problems than it is intended to solve.


    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #146 on: January 01, 2020, 09:28:11 AM »
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  • To backup what Yeti is saying here, take a look at Dom Guerenger’s meditation on St Thomas Becket (Dec 29).  The choice that the martyrs had was either die for the faith and go to heaven or deny the faith and go to hell.  There is no other option.  We can’t make a mental reservation while giving the appearance of denying the faith.  We can’t blame our denial on external pressures or fear of death.  Why would we fear death if we truly held the faith which tells us that there is no greater love than to lay down ones life for a friend.  Would Our Lord refuse the hoped-for reward to such friends?  And according to Dom G, this requirement to remain steadfast in the face of death threats is greater for prelates.  Not only must they uphold the doctrine of the Church but they must also assert the rights of the Church, specifically the Church’s liberty. This is why St Thomas Becket is considered a martyr because he asserted the Church’s liberty over the demands of the king.

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #147 on: January 01, 2020, 09:38:20 AM »
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  • It's not me who decided anything. Bp. Tissier de Mallerais once wrote a study based on the work of Archbishop Lefebvre, in which he put forth the view that the Pope is the head of two churches. Being a sedevacantist, you may not have ever heard of Bp. Tissier de Mallerais, but I assume that you've at least heard of Archbishop Lefebvre, though you probably know little about his work, as is the case with most sedes. Though this is now a sede forum, I hope that I am still allowed to post a link to the study of Bp. tissier de Mallerais, for those very few who might take the time to read it:

    http://www.dominicansavrille.us/is-there-a-conciliar-church/
    And how do you reckon Francis only made JP2 a saint of the "conciliar church"?

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #148 on: January 01, 2020, 10:53:32 AM »
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  • .
    I've heard this claim so many times, but I've never seen a shred of evidence for it. Have you?
    .
    It's not Siri was living in some bunker after the election of Roncalli. He was seen in public, operated his diocese. He could easily, at any time, have picked up his phone and called the police and told them he was being threatened by his assistants, or that they wouldn't let him leave his house. He could have simply walked out his front door, hailed a cab, and gotten the hell out of town. He could have done any number of things very easily if he were the true pope and knew it. The fact that he didn't is hard to reconcile with the idea that he was pope.
    .
    So many popes have been put to death, put in dungeons, tortured both physically and mentally in every possible way. If Siri were pope, why would he have behaved so radically differently? Wouldn't he have the graces of state of all his predecessors?
    .
    If he were the true pope, allowing John XXIII to present himself to the world as the true pope, and allowing the world to be deceived by that, would be an act of schism if he knew that he himself were the true pope. Maybe he was okay with burning in hell forever to avoid persecution in this world; he wouldn't be the first. But it just seems hard to believe.
    .
    The only theory I have ever heard for why Siri would sell his soul in such an awful manner is that his family was threatened with murder if he announced himself as pope. But that would be martyrdom if it were carried out. Couldn't he call his family up, tell them to prepare their souls for a glorious crown, and then give a press conference telling the world how he was elected in the 1958 conclave?
    .
    While I do agree that the 1958 conclave is extremely suspicious and anomalous, I just don't think the idea of "Pope Siri" living out his days as a secret pope is a very adequate answer, and seems to create greater problems than it is intended to solve.

    We leave it up to God to determine the degree of sin Siri may or may not have had in backing away from the papacy.  I could also see some ambivalence in the mind of Siri.  He may have perceived that he had resigned, even if it was under duress.  But the duress would have canonically invalidated the resignation.  So I don't believe that Siri was necessarily convinced that he was actually the reigning Pope.  But it would have canonically impeded the election of Roncalli et al. nonetheless.  There's that prophecy of St. Francis that there would be an "uncanonically-elected pope" who would wreak havoc on the Church and would be a "destroyer".

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #149 on: January 01, 2020, 02:26:34 PM »
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  • We might have to start a new thread for this topic, but your answer does seem a little more reasonable than the idea that Siri had sniper rifles trained on him at every moment for the next 30 years of his life, which is the image I get when I read the explanations of Gary Giuffre and his buddies.
    .
    But let's suppose he didn't accept the office because he thought he had resigned, even though his resignation hadn't been valid because of duress. Would that mean he would be pope without knowing it for the next 30 years? I really have to question that. If he doesn't assume the office and begin to exercise it within a reasonable amount of time, and has no intention of doing so, then I think that would be tantamount to resignation in itself. In canon law it even says that failure to assume a new office within a reasonable amount of time leads to tacit resignation. Whether this would apply to the pope too is debatable, but the idea is not just a matter of legal technicality. It's more a matter of common sense (I don't like that term because it's often used to insult people, but I can't think of an expression that says what I'm getting at any better than that, so please don't think I'm accusing you of not having common sense.) In other words, the papacy isn't like a library card that you can get and then stick in your wallet and forget about it for the next 20-30 years, even while it remains valid. So the idea that his election would have impeded the election of Paul VI later, as well as maybe JP1 and JP2 (I forget when Siri died) seems problematic at best. In any case, there were certainly other considerations that impeded the elections of Paul VI and those since him, but that's a story for another day. :laugh1:
    .
    I am certainly fascinated by Cardinal Siri, because of the incontrovertible proof that something ... let us say ... not according to plan happened in the 1958 election, and I think knowing what exactly that was would help a lot in discerning our path today, but again, I see a lot of problems with the idea that Siri remained pope until his death.