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Author Topic: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!  (Read 7007 times)

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Online Ladislaus

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Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
« Reply #120 on: December 30, 2019, 12:37:00 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on December 30, 2019, 11:47:09 AM
    For sedes, all that seems to matter is whether or not the Pope is a heretic. Nothing else matters. The details of the Crisis evade the sedes, ...

    False, Meg; no one really cares about the person of Jorge Bergoglio.  What's at issue is the Church's Magisterium and Universal Discipline.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #121 on: December 30, 2019, 12:45:12 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on December 30, 2019, 12:37:00 PM
    False, Meg; no one really cares about the person of Jorge Bergoglio.  What's at issue is the Church's Magisterium and Universal Discipline.

    And yet you do not differentiate between the conciliar church and the Catholic Church. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #122 on: December 30, 2019, 04:47:51 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on December 30, 2019, 12:45:12 PM
    And yet you do not differentiate between the conciliar church and the Catholic Church.

    Not sure what you mean.  Sedevacantists differentiate more between the two than R&R do, saying that they're completely separate (unrelated) entitles.  Sedeprivationists say that they are formally distinct even if materially overlapping.  And that might actually be a better way to state the clumsy R&R two churches within a church nonsense.
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    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #123 on: December 31, 2019, 08:45:59 AM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on December 30, 2019, 11:47:09 AM
    It was an honest question. You may not believe that the Catholic Church is occupied by a Modernist sect, but some of do believe that it is. For sedes, all that seems to matter is whether or not the Pope is a heretic. Nothing else matters. The details of the Crisis evade the sedes, and only serve get in the way of their (your) agenda.
    So Francis is the leader of a Modernist sect and the Church at the same time, alright then. So... why does her highness, Meg get to decide when Francis is acting as head of the Church or when he's acting as head of the sect? Who gave you that authority - that you should decide when Francis is canonising a saint of the Church and when he's actually only canonising a saint of the "sect"(despite saying otherwise himself)?
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #124 on: December 31, 2019, 10:37:59 AM »
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    • Quote from: forlorn on December 31, 2019, 08:45:59 AM
    So Francis is the leader of a Modernist sect and the Church at the same time, alright then. So... why does her highness, Meg get to decide when Francis is acting as head of the Church or when he's acting as head of the sect? Who gave you that authority - that you should decide when Francis is canonising a saint of the Church and when he's actually only canonising a saint of the "sect"(despite saying otherwise himself)?

    It's not me who decided anything. Bp. Tissier de Mallerais once wrote a study based on the work of Archbishop Lefebvre, in which he put forth the view that the Pope is the head of two churches. Being a sedevacantist, you may not have ever heard of Bp. Tissier de Mallerais, but I assume that you've at least heard of Archbishop Lefebvre, though you probably know little about his work, as is the case with most sedes. Though this is now a sede forum, I hope that I am still allowed to post a link to the study of Bp. tissier de Mallerais, for those very few who might take the time to read it:

    http://www.dominicansavrille.us/is-there-a-conciliar-church/
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #125 on: December 31, 2019, 10:41:53 AM »
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    • The sedevacantists remind me of something from Tolkien's LoTR.

    The Sedes are like the Ringwraiths, or Nazgul, who persecute the innocent hobbits (the Resistance), because they desire power above all.

    https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=LoTR%2c+ringwriaths&view=detail&mid=CA6D317D9A8E7104A824CA6D317D9A8E7104A824&FORM=VIRE
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #126 on: December 31, 2019, 10:49:41 AM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on December 31, 2019, 10:41:53 AM
    The sedevacantists remind me of something from Tolkien's LoTR.

    The Sedes are like the Ringwraiths, or Nazgul, who persecute the innocent hobbits (the Resistance), because they desire power above all.

    https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=LoTR%2c+ringwriaths&view=detail&mid=CA6D317D9A8E7104A824CA6D317D9A8E7104A824&FORM=VIRE

    Your strongest theological argument yet.

    :facepalm:

    Guys, I think that Meg has officially cracked.
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #127 on: December 31, 2019, 10:51:33 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on December 31, 2019, 10:49:41 AM
    Your strongest theological argument yet.

    :facepalm:
    At least it was in a thread where it was on topic this time.  ::)


    Quote from: Ladislaus on December 31, 2019, 10:49:41 AM
    Guys, I think that Meg has officially cracked.
    Has she gotten worse or am I just noticing it more lately?  I've been wondering.
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #128 on: December 31, 2019, 10:54:53 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on December 31, 2019, 10:49:41 AM
    Your strongest theological argument yet.

    :facepalm:

    Guys, I think that Meg has officially cracked.
    😂 
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #129 on: December 31, 2019, 11:13:52 AM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on December 31, 2019, 10:51:33 AM
    At least it was in a thread where it was on topic this time.  ::)

    Has she gotten worse or am I just noticing it more lately?  I've been wondering.

    Yeah, I'm afraid it's gotten to the point that she's completely neurotic about sedevacantism, sees an evil sedevacantist behind every bush.  I'm not actually a sedevacantist myself, but she lumps us all in as sede-whatever-ists.  She thinks that I am trying to convert people to sedevacantism, whereas this is not the case.  Someone PMed me about whether he should go to non-una-cuм Masses if he believed that Francis is the legitimate Pope.  I told him that I didn't think that the "una cuм" thing meant as much as some people claimed; when he responded that he didn't feel that he should, I replied that this would not be "inconsistent with [his] position."  I told this person that I am in no position to form his conscience, but that he has to work it out himself.  I'm not trying to "convert" anyone to any particular Catholic position.  I just call out my disagreements when I see them.  I'm actually much more tolerant regarding a diversity of opinion in this Crisis than many would believe ... because of how strongly/forcefully I voice my opinions.  I have no issues attending an Eastern Rite Catholic Liturgy, or, on the other end of the spectrum, a non-una-cuм Mass offered by a Thuc-line priest.  Even though I have my beliefs on some of these matters (including the EENS issue), if I were a priest, I would not deny any Catholic the Sacraments based on this disagreement of opinion.  I am very much opposed to the "excommunicators" among Traditional Catholics, feeling that this can engender schismatic attitudes.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #130 on: December 31, 2019, 11:21:10 AM »
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    • The sedeprivationists are just as bad, or worse, than the sedes, because the sedeprivationists are excellent at portraying themselves as at least sympathetic to tradition to work of +ABL, and yet they are not.

    His Excellency Bishop Faure (whom most on the forum could care less about, since it's a sede forum), once said that the Resistance is attacked on two fronts or sides. On one side are the liberals who support the ralliement with Rome, and the other side who attack the Resistance are the sedevacantists, who are more conservative.

    Both want to see an end to the Resistance. Both are dangerous, and yet the sedes and their supporters are allowed to prevail here.

    Here's another little video about the Ringwraiths, who are like the vicious sedes who attack the Resistance.



    It matters very little to me if the sedes and their loyal supporters attack me for standing up for the Resistance. I know that I am in the right.
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #131 on: December 31, 2019, 12:16:45 PM »
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    • It is rather silly to see traditional Catholics, sede or any position, as comparable to completely evil monsters.  I actually think the R and R position is more correct, but that does not make the people who disagree with it evil.  Nor does people expressing their opinions in a discussion forum equate to deadly attacks on innocent hobbits.  I am not a "sede supporter".  I just like people to say things that make sense.

    If you really want a popular culture reference, it's more like Marvel's cινιℓ ωαr.  They are all good guys and both sides have good reasons for taking the positions that they do.

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    Offline Matto

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    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #132 on: December 31, 2019, 12:34:29 PM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on December 31, 2019, 12:16:45 PM
    It is rather silly to see traditional Catholics, sede or any position, as comparable to completely evil monsters.

    Some people on both sides, and often the most vocal ones, see the opposition as non-Catholics, and if one believes in EENS, sees them as outside of the Church and going to hell, so the promoters of the opposite position are actively recruiting soldiers for the army of satan and for hell. They pick up those who are aware of problems and are willing to fight for the truth, and recruit them to the wrong army, the army of satan. So in this view since they corrupt and damn the souls of those most likely to be saved, the ones who are awake and looking for the truth, in this view they are among the most evil people alive, comparable to the nazgul. If one accepts this view, then the other side of the traditionalist coin are not allies, they are enemies as bad as the ѕуηαgσgυє of satan, and in fact, the ѕуηαgσgυє's foot soldiers at worst or useless idiots at best.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #133 on: December 31, 2019, 12:52:13 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on December 31, 2019, 11:21:10 AM
    The sedeprivationists are just as bad, or worse, than the sedes, because the sedeprivationists are excellent at portraying themselves as at least sympathetic to tradition to work of +ABL, and yet they are not.

    I've known very few sedevacantists or sedeplenists who were not at least sympathetic to +Lefebvre and who did not have respect and admiration for him.  So this is no feigned sympathy.  This does not mean that everyone has to agree with everything +Lefebvre did or said.  He was a great man, but he's not God.  And, of course, you completely misrepresent +Lefebvre.  Unlike yourself, he was quite tolerant of and not unsympathetic with the sedevacantist position.
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    Offline King Wenceslas

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    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #134 on: December 31, 2019, 01:48:01 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on December 30, 2019, 12:06:37 PM
    Where do you get the idea that R&R Catholics intuitively know that SVism is heretical? Whom do you include in your assessment of R&R? Sedes have the tendency to be rude, obnoxious, sometimes a bit ruthless in their attempt to push sedeism on everyone else, but most R&R don't consider Sedes to be heretical (I'll probably regret saying this, though).

    The Bishops and priests of the Resistance, for example, don't view sedes as being heretical, though of course there is a danger that they will fall into schism if they are not careful. But the idea of SVism being heretical is not actually the position of R&R.

    Ha, ha, ha.

    Just try to get married, your child baptized, confirmed or what ever in a SSPX, FSSP or ICKSP church/chapel after you announce you are sedeplenist/sedevacantist.

    FSSP will not even allow the godfather/godmother to be members of SSPX or to be members of a sedevacantist church.
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