Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!  (Read 7013 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Meg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6789
  • Reputation: +3467/-2999
  • Gender: Female
Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
« Reply #75 on: December 27, 2019, 07:20:42 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • No, you really don't, Meg.  You don't understand the position of +Lefebvre.  Archbishop Lefebvre considered the status of the Vatican II popes to be doubtful, but resolved the doubt in their favor based on a type of "benefit of the doubt" position and various prudential considerations.  EVERYBODY claims to be the authentic follower of +Lefebvre.  I for one do not worship him ... just respect and admire him.  If I happen to come to the same conclusion as +Lefebvre on some issue, then that's great.  But I don't feel any need to constantly pretend that I am an authentic disciple of +Lefebvre.  That card is usually played when someone is losing an argument ... the "appeal to authority" logical fallacy.

    So, for instance, I have absolutely no hesitation in disagreeing with +Lefebvre's statement regarding the EENS dogma.

    You accuse me of worshiping Lefebvre? That's another thing we aren't supposed to do - to put words in anyone's mouth, or to make unfounded accusations. When you aren't winning a debate, you resort to immature responses.

    +ABL spent very little time focusing on the status of the Pope. You know that, and yet you still promote the idea.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 14639
    • Reputation: +6030/-901
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #76 on: December 28, 2019, 06:10:31 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • On the subject of sedevacantes, I do not bother to read what XavierSem, Meg, Sean Johnson and others like them say, I just scroll down the comments and just read Ladislaus, or read how Laslaus responds. It's a big time saver. If I were proven wrong as much as those people are, I would learn a lot. They have learned nothing.

    Keep up the good work Ladislaus, don't ever think your work is fruitless because of those wood heads, we people who learn something new every day are all learning a ton.
    LT, you may just want to watch out for whenever Lad quotes Fr. Fenton's wrong teachings, like this one he likes to quote from Fr. Fenton: "God has given the Holy Father a kind of infallibility distinct from the charism of doctrinal infallibility in the strict sense..."

    What Fr. Fenton's idea does, under the pretext of a more profound understanding of course, is it abandons the meaning of the sacred dogma of papal infallibility "which has once been declared by Holy Mother the Church".

    So you may just want to beware of that. Hard to tell how many people over the last +60 years believed Fr. Fenton's teaching and on that account, went the way of the NO. The great Lad himself has in the past said that if he could be convinced that the pope was the pope, that he'd also go the way of the NO. If that's what a firm belief in that idea can do to him, then it can do it to you too, so just beware my friend. 


    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46127
    • Reputation: +27158/-5013
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #77 on: December 28, 2019, 08:32:44 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • What Fr. Fenton's idea does, under the pretext of a more profound understanding of course, is it abandons the meaning of the sacred dogma of papal infallibility "which has once been declared by Holy Mother the Church".

    Stubborn, you just keep failing when it comes to basic logic, which is what causes us to be so terribly frustrated with you.  Just because Vatican I defined two different modes in which the Church's infallibility can be exercised, these definitions do not positively rule out other ways in which the Holy Ghost guides the Church and preserves her from error.  So, for instance, theologians nearly-unanimously hold that the Church's Universal Discipline is infallible ... as well as canonization.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46127
    • Reputation: +27158/-5013
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #78 on: December 28, 2019, 08:34:48 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • You accuse me of worshiping Lefebvre? 

    It's implicit in your use of the "argument from authority" fallacy.  Whenever you've been rebutted, you pull out the "I'm simply following Archbishop Lefebvre card," even when you are actually.  It's a subtle way of trying to shut down your opponent by waving a sock-puppet of +Lefebvre in front of you ... not unlike what the Jews do with the h0Ɩ0cαųst ("if you're against the massacre of Palestinians, then you are like Hitler and for the h0Ɩ0cαųst.")

    Offline Meg

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6789
    • Reputation: +3467/-2999
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #79 on: December 28, 2019, 08:45:06 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • It's implicit in your use of the "argument from authority" fallacy.  Whenever you've been rebutted, you pull out the "I'm simply following Archbishop Lefebvre card," even when you are actually.  It's a subtle way of trying to shut down your opponent by waving a sock-puppet of +Lefebvre in front of you ... not unlike what the Jews do with the h0Ɩ0cαųst ("if you're against the massacre of Palestinians, then you are like Hitler and for the h0Ɩ0cαųst.")

    Yes, I do believe that +ABL had more authority than you have, or will EVER have. We can still refer to what he wrote, said, and did, based on his authority and his good work. I don't have any intention of reinventing the wheel.

    It may seem like I'm trying to shut you down, but that's not the case. You will ague continually from the supposed authority of your own opinions, as if we are bound to accept your opinions. We are not. I will continue to point our Archbishop Lefebvre's stance on the situation today. You might want to consider not responding to my posts, if it bothers you that I refer to +ABL quite a lot.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46127
    • Reputation: +27158/-5013
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #80 on: December 28, 2019, 08:52:17 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Yes, I do believe that +ABL had more authority than you have, or will EVER have.

    Ya think?  Obviously.  This does not, however, mean that he was right about everything and that that he's some kind of infallible guide.

    Offline Meg

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6789
    • Reputation: +3467/-2999
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #81 on: December 28, 2019, 08:55:08 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Ya think?  Obviously.  This does not, however, mean that he was right about everything and that that he's some kind of infallible guide.

    I have never said that Archbishop Lefebvre was infallible or right about everything. You know that, and yet you like to infer things that have not been said or indicated. Exaggeration does not make for a good argument. I know that +ABL was not perfect or infallible. But he did a far, far better job of explaining the Crisis than you have ever done.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Yeti

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 4049
    • Reputation: +2392/-524
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #82 on: December 28, 2019, 09:15:17 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Yeti, to put Matthew's point into practice, related to your last 2 posts...
    .
    The vast majority of sedes believe that point #2, where a V2 pope would convert, is an impossibility because they believe the moment he proclaims heresy that he has lost his office because a heretic is no longer a catholic, being outside the church.  This would mean that he could not “convert” and regain his office, as he would have to be re-elected again.  So #2 is an impossibility, per the logic of 99% of sedes.
    .
    Point #1 is of Divine intervention and would only seem to be a solution if the other points not be possible.  So this can’t be relied upon being that point #3 is still possible.  
    .
    You say (in the quoted part above) that sedes believe they “don’t have the power” to elect a new pope?  Why not?
    .
    99% of sedes on this board (which corresponds to the the major arguments that I’ve run across in real life too) say that ALL the Cardinals in Rome are heretics.  So they have lost their offices and are no longer catholic nor able to elect a pope.  This goes also for the Roman clergy, since they also follow V2 and the new mass and are heretics.  Thus, all that’s left are the “whole church” to elect a new pope.  
    .
    So who makes up the “whole church” remnant?  It’s either sedes or the sspx of Tradition.  Well, the sspx has accepted V2, generally speaking, and they aren’t really Trads anymore.  Same thing for all indulters.  Who’s left but the Resistance and the sedes.  The Resistance are heretics (at least materially, according to sede logic) because they accept a heretic pope, so the inly group left in the “whole church” who is 100% orthodox is the sede movement.  This is point #3.   So why haven’t sedes elected a pope? Per point 3, they DO have the power.
    .
    Let's see, I don't think it's quite accurate to say sedes don't accept point 2, though the way they think it could happen is a little complex. I do accept point 2, as I suspect most sedes do, but the way I would explain it is that Bergoglio's current election is invalid, but if he were to repent, he would be accepted by the "whole Church" (of Cajetan), and he would become pope at that point by the method that Cajetan described of a pope being elected by the "whole Church". I'm not sure every sede accepts this, but as far as I can see it checks all the boxes. Actually, my personal belief is that this is the most likely way the papacy and hierarchy will be restored.
    .
    Point #1, divine intervention. I agree that we should not rely on miracles, but first of all this isn't the only solution to this crisis, so we aren't relying on expecting a miracle, but merely holding it out as one possibility of several to have a true pope. The way this could work could be that some miracle could show the whole Church whom God wants to be the pope, and the whole Church could accept him as pope, taking us back again to the "whole Church" electing a pope, as Cajetan said. It is important to stress here that the miracle would not be a new revelation from God about who the pope is (as Bp. Sanborn argued), but would rather be the catalyst for the whole Church to elect a new pope, and the pope's election would be valid based on the whole Church's election and not on the miracle itself.
    .
    "You say (in the quoted part above) that sedes believe they “don’t have the power” to elect a new pope?  Why not?"
    .
    Sedevacantists don't think they are the only people in the Church (despite what a lot of R&R people on this forum seem to think), and thus do not constitute the whole Church. At this point in history it seems obvious there would have to be some unifying event that would bring together everyone left in the world who believes in the Catholic Faith and accept someone as pope. Until that happens, I don't think the whole Church will be able to elect a pope, and it seems that only God can bring something like that about, though I don't pretend to know.
    .
    (By the way, how do you quote from the same post several times? The browser puts the original quote at the top, but I can't figure out how to insert another quote from another post further down in the middle of my post. That's why I'm using italics instead.)
    .
    "99% of sedes on this board (which corresponds to the the major arguments that I’ve run across in real life too) say that ALL the Cardinals in Rome are heretics.  So they have lost their offices and are no longer catholic nor able to elect a pope.  This goes also for the Roman clergy, since they also follow V2 and the new mass and are heretics.  Thus, all that’s left are the “whole church” to elect a new pope. "
    .
    Well, this certainly appears to be the case. Do you know of any clergy in Rome who still believes in the Catholic Faith? I don't.
    .
    For your last paragraph I will insert my own comments between your sentences, as I can't figure out how to make separate quotes from another post.
    .
    "So who makes up the “whole church” remnant?  It’s either sedes or the sspx of Tradition. [I think it's a lot of people from both those groups, including others. Again, sedes don't think they are the only Catholics in the world, despite the popular straw-man argument on this forum.] Well, the sspx has accepted V2, generally speaking, and they aren’t really Trads anymore. [False] Same thing for all indulters. [Mostly false, but to a lesser degree than your previous statement.] Who’s left but the Resistance and the sedes.  The Resistance are heretics (at least materially, according to sede logic) because they accept a heretic pope, so the inly group left in the “whole church” who is 100% orthodox is the sede movement.  This is point #3.   So why haven’t sedes elected a pope? Per point 3, they DO have the power" [No, they don't believe they have this power, as I have stated already.]
    .
    It would sure help a lot in discussing sedevacantism if people would just ask sedes what they believe instead of extrapolating their own analyses of the various errors they think sedes are logically committed to believing, and then assuming sedes believe those errors. There are numerous sedes on this forum who are happy and friendly and would love to explain what we believe to anyone who wants to ask. Try that first!


    Offline Meg

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6789
    • Reputation: +3467/-2999
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #83 on: December 28, 2019, 09:33:46 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • It would sure help a lot in discussing sedevacantism if people would just ask sedes what they believe instead of extrapolating their own analyses of the various errors they think sedes are logically committed to believing, and then assuming sedes believe those errors. There are numerous sedes on this forum who are happy and friendly and would love to explain what we believe to anyone who wants to ask. Try that first!

    I can't see that sedes have a problem in telling us what they believe. Not by a longshot. There are many years' worth of threads on this forum where sedes tell us what they believe (and often, they tell us what they think WE should or have to believe too).

    You've only been a forum member for less than two months. Some of us have been debating with the sedes and sedewhatevers for years here. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Last Tradhican

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6293
    • Reputation: +3330/-1939
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #84 on: December 28, 2019, 09:53:39 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • LT, you may just want to watch out for whenever Lad quotes Fr. Fenton's wrong teachings, like this one he likes to quote from Fr. Fenton: "God has given the Holy Father a kind of infallibility distinct from the charism of doctrinal infallibility in the strict sense..."

    What Fr. Fenton's idea does, under the pretext of a more profound understanding of course, is it abandons the meaning of the sacred dogma of papal infallibility "which has once been declared by Holy Mother the Church".

    So you may just want to beware of that. Hard to tell how many people over the last +60 years believed Fr. Fenton's teaching and on that account, went the way of the NO. The great Lad himself has in the past said that if he could be convinced that the pope was the pope, that he'd also go the way of the NO. If that's what a firm belief in that idea can do to him, then it can do it to you too, so just beware my friend.  
    I've said many times that if we had to wait almost 2000 years for Fr. Fenton, for us to learn what EENS really means, then there is something wrong. I personally would never quote Fr. Fenton for anything. I do not see that Ladislaus is depending solely on Fr. Fenton. Fr. Fenton went along with the Vatican II church 100%.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46127
    • Reputation: +27158/-5013
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #85 on: December 28, 2019, 10:07:01 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I've said many times that if we had to wait almost 2000 years for Fr. Fenton, for us to learn what EENS really means, then there is something wrong. I personally would never quote Fr. Fenton for anything. I do not see that Ladislaus is depending solely on Fr. Fenton. Fr. Fenton went along with the Vatican II church 100%.

    No, of course I don't agree with Msgr. Fenton on everything.  He actually claimed that Vatican II ecclesiology represented an "improvement" in the area, a mistaken notion he arrived at due to his defective understanding of EENS.  But Msgr. Fenton just happened to articulate this particular point very well ... citing previous Catholic theologians.  I use his quote because it's a well-articulated statement of the case for infallible safety.


    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 14639
    • Reputation: +6030/-901
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #86 on: December 28, 2019, 01:38:40 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Stubborn, you just keep failing when it comes to basic logic, which is what causes us to be so terribly frustrated with you.  Just because Vatican I defined two different modes in which the Church's infallibility can be exercised, these definitions do not positively rule out other ways in which the Holy Ghost guides the Church and preserves her from error.  So, for instance, theologians nearly-unanimously hold that the Church's Universal Discipline is infallible ... as well as canonization.
    Basic logic is all I'm talking because the whole thing really is pretty basic, once you reject the ideas of the Fr. Fenton's of the world and simply accept the whole dogma of papal infallibility as it is declared.

    Yes, the faithful have always believed that canonizations are infallible, but this is because it is tradition within the Church, not because a pope says so, the pope is merely finalizing with the Church's highest blessings, all those decades, or even centuries worth of investigations as he canonizes someone a saint, but canonizations, per V1, do not meet the criteria that V1 defined for papal infallibility.

    This is also why the conciliar canonizations, lacking proper investigations and procedures are just another conciliar mockery and have nothing whatsoever to do with papal infallibility - but with the Fr. Fentons of the world improving upon and expanding the pope's infallibility as he does, and with you constantly trumpeting it all over the forums, many are fooled into the same confusion that you have.

    The ones that care don't know what the heck to think, or they think that one of our requirements for salvation which is absolutely necessary for everyone, has been effectively, falsely nullified due to either accepting a confusion that's impossible understand, or the requirement is nullified due to an empty chair. This is the result of his teaching.

    I've been a trad all my life and the Church and the Church's Universal Discipline are just as spotless now as it was since Pentecost and ever shall be, not sure what that even has to do with anything.

    As an influential Catholic priest, Fr. Fenton has no right to ever utter the words: "God has given the Holy Father a kind of infallibility distinct from the charism of doctrinal infallibility in the strict sense..." because he uses those words to explain how popes, by virtue of this different kind of infallibility, cannot possibly do what the conciliar popes have actually done.

    This false idea of his has proven to be a complete disaster, a giant scandal - on top of the already giant scandal within the Church, and please do note, scandal is the only fruit his idea has ever bore.  

    I find it somewhat incredible that you cannot see 2 things, 1) that this is his own teaching, in light of V1 it is blatantly wrong, and 2) belief in this teaching was/is instrumental in getting the herd to abandon the true faith for the new faith - of their own free will.

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 14639
    • Reputation: +6030/-901
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #87 on: December 28, 2019, 01:48:28 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I've said many times that if we had to wait almost 2000 years for Fr. Fenton, for us to learn what EENS really means, then there is something wrong. I personally would never quote Fr. Fenton for anything. I do not see that Ladislaus is depending solely on Fr. Fenton. Fr. Fenton went along with the Vatican II church 100%.
    I agree with you, yet Lad has posted this to show his belief that popes have an additional, different infallibility, an infallibility that is distinct from the dogma - which is at least error, if not outright heresy for any priest to even say.  

    It starts out "... God has given the Holy Father a kind of infallibility distinct from the charism of doctrinal infallibility" and ends up basically explaining that due to this different infallibility that Fr. Fenton awarded to popes, they are always infallibly safe to follow - which explains why multitudes did, do and will follow him no matter what he says or does.

    It has proven to be very easy for multitudes to believe this error is a teaching of the Church, even Lad believes it, in spite of the clear dogma defined infallibly at V1.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46127
    • Reputation: +27158/-5013
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #88 on: December 28, 2019, 02:27:34 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • ... his belief that popes have an additional, different infallibility, an infallibility that is distinct from the dogma - which is at least error, if not outright heresy for any priest to even say.  

    :facepalm:

    Offline Yeti

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 4049
    • Reputation: +2392/-524
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #89 on: December 28, 2019, 07:58:05 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Yes, the faithful have always believed that canonizations are infallible, but this is because it is tradition within the Church, not because a pope says so
    I thought this quote from St. Alphonsus might be relevant here:
    To suppose that the Church can err in canonizing, is a sin, or is heresy, according to St. Bonaventure, Bellarmine, and others; or at least next door to heresy, according to Suarez, Azorius, Gottti, etc.; because the Sovereign Pontiff, according to St. Thomas, is guided by the infallible influence of the Holy Ghost in an especial way when canonizing the saints.
    Here is a link to the page on Archive.org: https://archive.org/details/TheCompleteAsceticalWorksOfSt.Alphonsusvolume3/page/n39