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Author Topic: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!  (Read 6998 times)

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Offline Conspiracy_Factist

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Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
« Reply #30 on: December 24, 2019, 12:41:27 AM »
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  • Yes, if sede-ism was actually true, they would have correctly elected a Pope decades ago, and he would have received universal acceptance. The Pope receiving universal acceptance in the Church is the work of the Holy Ghost. When God does not approve of an election, He will not give UA.

    Here's why the situation doesn't resolve for the sedes: Only the Roman Clergy strictly have the right to elect the Roman Pontiff. But only the Roman Pontiff can appoint or incardinate Roman Clergy, among whom the Cardinals are the chief. Thus, the sedes are looking for Roman Clergy incardinated into the Roman Church to whom they can say "you are the electors of the Pope". But all those electors recognize the Pope. +ABL said, "The subsequent unanimous acceptance of the Cardinals and the Roman Clergy suffices to validate it (the Papal election). That is the teaching of theologians". So, sede-ism will go nowhere until they have Roman Clergy, which they don't.

    The very fact that all the Roman Clergy recognize the recent Popes should be, as +ABL said, a sufficient proof that they are the Popes.

    Next, some sedes will claim, if the Roman Clergy don't elect, then - supposedly - any group of Bishops, even vagrant Bishops without ordinary jurisdiction - again supposedly - can get together and elect. This too leads to stalemate, because no one knows who these Bishops are, how many there should be, what agreement is sufficient etc. And all that besides the fact that the SSPV, CMRI etc don't work together and SSPV believes CMRI and Thuc line orders to be invalid. If Christianity depended on sede-ism, Christianity would end.

    All this because of simple unwillingness to accept the Dogma of Perpetual Papal Successors and acknowledge the plain fact that the Popes have truly been Popes.
    why are you quoting ABL? you anti sedites  are quite comical
    Archbishop Lefebvre, Aug. 4, 1976: “The Council [Vatican II] turned its back on Tradition and broke with the Church of the past. It is a schismatic council… If we are certain that the Faith taught by the Church for twenty centuries can contain no error, we are much less certain that the pope is truly pope. Heresy, schism, excommunication ipso facto, or invalid election are all causes that can possibly mean the pope was never pope, or is no longer pope… Because ultimately, since the beginning of Paul VI’s pontificate, the conscience and faith of all Catholics have been faced with a serious problem. How is it that the pope, the true successor of Peter, who is assured of the help of the Holy Ghost, can officiate at the destruction of the Church – the most radical, rapid, and widespread in her history – something that no heresiarch has ever managed to achieve?”[11]

    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #31 on: December 24, 2019, 01:10:17 AM »
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  • Conspiracy Factist, here are the questions, and my response to your quote:

    1. Where are the Roman Clergy of the Catholic Church today? It is Catholic Teaching that there will always be at least some Roman Clergy. So where are they? Do they accept Pope Francis? If yes, you should too; because their acceptance shows that he is Pope. But if they don't accept him, why haven't you, or the Dimonds whom you took that quote from, convinced them to elect a new Roman Pontiff? You need a new Pope to continue the Church, to appoint Cardinals or Clergy in Rome, and in order to perpetuate the Petrine Succession.

    2. Where is the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium of the Catholic Church today? It is also Catholic Teaching that the Ecclesia Docens, the Teaching Church, cannot defect. Pure Protestants like the Dimond Brothers either don't know all this, or don't want you to know it; but it is sure and true doctrine, and you can easily verify it by checking your Catechism of Pope St. Pius X. So where is the OUM? Where are the Bishops appointed to office by the Pope? If there are no such, the Church has defected. If there are such Bishops and they accept the Pope, he is Pope. If supposedly these Bishops don't accept the Pope, then why haven't you convinced them to elect a Pope? You need a new Pope to continue the Church, to appoint new diocesan Bishops or Ordinaries to Office, and continue Apostolic Succession.

    3. Thirdly, regarding your quote: even some so-called trads will deny this, but the question +ABL raises is a legitimate one, and the answer given by the Mother of God in many places surpasses by far that of all the various sects combined; during the late 60s and up to almost the end of the 70s, the Vatican was basically run by 3 evil Cardinals: Benelli, Casaroli and Villot. Do the research and it will check out. Benelli was almost elected in 78, but God intervened. Casaroli told Agca to αssαssιnαtҽ Pope John Paul II. Villot, as Fr. Nantes and others docuмented, murdered Pope John Paul I after a pontificate of 33 days. This was the true power struggle going on in the Vatican.

    That the Catholic Church is still standing after such a vicious attack from Her Communist enemies is a divine miracle; the Holy Father indeed had much to suffer, just like Our Lady of Fatima said he would. This explanation is not so-called "R&R" but could be called "RPWR" -Recognize, Pray, Work, Restore, and preserves the Papacy and Tradition.


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #32 on: December 24, 2019, 06:14:35 AM »
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  • All Catholics are “conclavists” during a sede vacante.  There is no other way to obtain a pope.  Unbelievable that you would mock sedes for not electing a pope and then minutes later accuse them of schism for discussing an election.  
    Unbelievable? Nah.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #33 on: December 24, 2019, 06:20:33 AM »
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  • Indeed, if all the Traditional Catholic bishops and priests united to select a Pope, then I'd say you would have something there.  But due to the theological fragmentation among Traditional Catholics, it does not appear as if any such consensus would be possible in the foreseeable future.
    Yes.  But of course the first thing they all would have to agree on is that the Chair is in fact Empty (aka sedevacantism).  

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #34 on: December 24, 2019, 08:34:07 AM »
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  • Yes.  But of course the first thing they all would have to agree on is that the Chair is in fact Empty (aka sedevacantism).  

    Of course, and that's part of my point about why they'll not reach any consensus in the near future.  Now, only the most dogmatic sedevacantists can be conclavists (and this answers Matthew's question) ... since the sedevacantists realize that you can't just get two Thuc bishops together and legitimately elect a pope.  Only the most dogmatic sedevacantists think that they are the last few Catholics left in the world and so their election of a Pope would be legitimate.  Even some of the dogmatic SVs (say, those aligned with Bishop Sanborn) think this is a non-starter.  And, of course, +Sanborn et al. are also sedeprivationists who think that the See is materially occupied and therefore cannot be filled with another by an election.

    So, no it's not a self-contradicition to be a sedevacantist and non-conclavist.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #35 on: December 24, 2019, 08:35:16 AM »
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  • Yes, if sede-ism was actually true, they would have correctly elected a Pope decades ago, and he would have received universal acceptance. 

    False.  See my previous response.  Once again you're setting up straw men against sedevacantism.

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #36 on: December 24, 2019, 08:49:06 AM »
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  • Claudel-

    I expect a long, loquacious diatribe about Clemens' profanity.

    Oh yes, I definitely mock the schismatics.

    You should definitely, to be consistent, elect a fake pope.

    It only highlights your disguised schismatic mentality, which sometimes needs to be provoked out of you (as in this instance).
    You know Sean, I think you should forget about this forum and just obey the advice of your “pope”, on religious matters of course, kinda like this guy:
    https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2019/12/italys-national-soccer-team-manager-pope-francis-told-me-not-to-make-sign-of-the-cross-on-the-field-video/


    I believe schism consists in the refusal to be subject to the Roman Pontiff or the refusal to be united to other Catholics in union with him. I refuse to recognize a non Catholic heretic as a pope, thus I’m not subject to him. But to you, he IS the pope, and you refuse to be subject to him! Sad case indeed!
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #37 on: December 24, 2019, 09:12:42 AM »
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  • None of the problems mentioned are insurmountable even if some will be quite difficult to overcome.  But I’m hoping that most Catholics can agree that heretical apostate pagan demon-worshiping men, regardless of their Roman collars, cannot possibly elect a true pope.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #38 on: December 24, 2019, 09:19:59 AM »
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  • You know Sean, I think you should forget about this forum and just obey the advice of your “pope”, on religious matters of course, kinda like this guy:
    https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2019/12/italys-national-soccer-team-manager-pope-francis-told-me-not-to-make-sign-of-the-cross-on-the-field-video/


    I believe schism consists in the refusal to be subject to the Roman Pontiff or the refusal to be united to other Catholics in union with him. I refuse to recognize a non Catholic heretic as a pope, thus I’m not subject to him. But to you, he IS the pope, and you refuse to be subject to him! Sad case indeed!

    Ahh, the sede-mantra:

    “If he is pope, you must obey!”
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #39 on: December 24, 2019, 09:22:06 AM »
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  • None of the problems mentioned are insurmountable even if some will be quite difficult to overcome.  But I’m hoping that most Catholics can agree that heretical apostate pagan demon-worshiping men, regardless of their Roman collars, cannot possibly elect a true pope.
    Ecclesiavacantism!

    “The Church has defected,” cry the sedes!
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #40 on: December 24, 2019, 09:29:17 AM »
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  • Ahh, the sede-mantra:

    “If he is pope, you must obey!”
    And the R&R answer......crickets
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #41 on: December 24, 2019, 11:54:07 AM »
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  • Ecclesiavacantism!

    “The Church has defected,” cry the sedes!

    No, the defection problem is clearly in favor of the sedevacantists.  Church continues during the vacancy of the Holy See; true defection happens when the Church fails in her mission.

    from the Catholic Encyclopedia:
    Quote
    Among the prerogatives conferred on His Church by Christ is the gift of indefectibility. By this term is signified, not merely that the Church will persist to the end of time, but further, that it will preserve unimpaired its essential characteristics. The Church can never undergo any constitutional change which will make it, as a social organism, something different from what it was originally. It can never become corrupt in faith or in morals; nor can it ever lose the Apostolic hierarchy, or the sacraments through which Christ communicates grace to men. The gift of indefectibility is expressly promised to the Church by Christ, in the words in which He declares that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. It is manifest that, could the storms which the Church encounters so shake it as to alter its essential characteristics and make it other than Christ intended it to be, the gates of hell, i.e. the powers of evil, would have prevailed. It is clear, too, that could the Church suffer substantial change, it would no longer be an instrument capable of accomplishing the work for which God called it in to being. He established it that it might be to all men the school of holiness. This it would cease to be if ever it could set up a false and corrupt moral standard. He established it to proclaim His revelation to the world, and charged it to warn all men that unless they accepted that message they must perish everlastingly. Could the Church, in defining the truths of revelation err in the smallest point, such a charge would be impossible.

    Who cares if the hierarchy continues on materially if this hierarchy can lead the entire Church into error?  We'd be better off without such a hierarchy.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #42 on: December 24, 2019, 01:02:34 PM »
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  • No, the defection problem is clearly in favor of the sedevacantists.  Church continues during the vacancy of the Holy See; true defection happens when the Church fails in her mission.

    from the Catholic Encyclopedia:
    Who cares if the hierarchy continues on materially if this hierarchy can lead the entire Church into error?  We'd be better off without such a hierarchy.

    No, ecclesiavacantism is not merely the disappearance of a pope, but of any and every clerical authority in the Church...thereby making restoration impossible, and therefore the failure of the Church.

    The truth is, sedes have no church.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #43 on: December 24, 2019, 01:20:18 PM »
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  • No, ecclesiavacantism is not merely the disappearance of a pope, but of any and every clerical authority in the Church...thereby making restoration impossible, and therefore the failure of the Church.

    The truth is, sedes have no church.
    If you read more of what we wrote instead of constantly bloviating (in the written word, of course), you would realize that your objection has been answered many times. 
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #44 on: December 24, 2019, 03:56:25 PM »
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  • No, ecclesiavacantism is not merely the disappearance of a pope, but of any and every clerical authority in the Church...thereby making restoration impossible, and therefore the failure of the Church.

    Not true.  That is merely your assertion, but I find it to be unfounded.  We've had long threads about this subject including quotations from theologians who disagree.  I in fact used to agree that this so-called ecclesia-vacantist argument was a legitimate criticism of sedevacantism ... but the theological sources provided by some of the sedevacantists caused me to change my mind.  I used to say that sedeprivationism solves this problem, but I no longer believe that it is a problem.