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Author Topic: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!  (Read 7011 times)

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Offline Quo vadis Domine

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Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2019, 04:49:58 PM »
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  • Francis has universal acceptance, and according to the sedes, it does him no good: Those who accept him are not Catholic enough, they say.

    But if the sedes are the only pure and true Catholics, then by the same logic, only they should need to agree upon a pope, and the universal acceptance threshold is met.

    So the question stands: Why DOESN'T the sede movement elect a Pope?
    Textbook example of a straw man argument. 
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline MiserereMei

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    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #16 on: December 23, 2019, 05:05:09 PM »
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  • I'm not a sedevacantist but I know sedevacantist priests and a couple of bishops from former Latinamerican Catholic countries. Many of them focus their work on their flocks and leave the solution to the crisis  to God since they don't have the means (internet, contact with European traditional clergy, don't speak English, French or other language) that would allow them to get information. Regarding the papal question, they say that according to tradition, if one does not have certainty, at least one is obliged to take the most probable position (no pope in this case), but always knowing that there is a slight chance that they could be wrong. This is one of the reasons they don't elect a new pope. Another reason is that a pope has to be the bishop of Rome, so that leaves the issue to the European clergy since it would be difficult to get universal acceptance of a pope elected in other parts of the world.


    Offline songbird

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    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #17 on: December 23, 2019, 05:35:52 PM »
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  • Can Pius the X excommunicate this pope?  Can they elect a Pope?  If so, who can we trust to be one?  Do they not all say the New Order Mess?!  So, maybe no one is available to be a true pope?  Are they not all serving Satan?  We have many prophecies that tell us what is coming.  Daniel says, Mass will come to end.  We have a remnant left.

    Offline Conspiracy_Factist

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    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #18 on: December 23, 2019, 07:24:15 PM »
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  • Francis has universal acceptance, and according to the sedes, it does him no good: Those who accept him are not Catholic enough, they say.

    But if the sedes are the only pure and true Catholics, then by the same logic, only they should need to agree upon a pope, and the universal acceptance threshold is met.

    So the question stands: Why DOESN'T the sede movement elect a Pope?
    for starters i don't believe only sedes are the only pure and true Catholics, they are just correct on an issue that Francis is not a true pope...you and Matthew  and others here are wrong on the issue for you believe a non catholic jew freemason from the pits of hell who is trying to destroy the Church of Christ is your pope

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #19 on: December 23, 2019, 07:56:30 PM »
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  • Francis has universal acceptance, and according to the sedes, it does him no good: Those who accept him are not Catholic enough, they say.

    Constantly fumbling and bumbling.  No, it is not that Francis has universal acceptance and "it does him no good".  Francis has no universal acceptance.  95%+ of those who accept him aren't Catholic at all.  According to you, the Pope himself and 95% of the hierarchy in union with him "are not Catholic enough".  That is in fact why you have severed communion with them.  Could the Resistance find some other spokesman for their cause who doesn't embarrass himself every time he posts?


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #20 on: December 23, 2019, 07:59:12 PM »
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  • Indeed, if all the Traditional Catholic bishops and priests united to select a Pope, then I'd say you would have something there.  But due to the theological fragmentation among Traditional Catholics, it does not appear as if any such consensus would be possible in the foreseeable future.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #21 on: December 23, 2019, 08:03:22 PM »
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  • 95%+ of those who accept him aren't Catholic at all.  

    I accept your concession.

    Let me know if I can help you again.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #22 on: December 23, 2019, 08:04:51 PM »
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  • Indeed, if all the Traditional Catholic bishops and priests united to select a Pope, then I'd say you would have something there.  But due to the theological fragmentation among Traditional Catholics, it does not appear as if any such consensus would be possible in the foreseeable future.

    Your quick follow-up implies your own dissatisfaction and sensed insufficiency of your previous blather (which, i reiterate, conceded my argument even as you thought to oppose it)!

    Ha-ha.  Look, I am now defeating you with 2-sentence posts!!!
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline PAT317

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    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #23 on: December 23, 2019, 08:30:06 PM »
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  • Can Pius the X excommunicate this pope?  
    He is deceased.   ;)

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #24 on: December 23, 2019, 08:33:49 PM »
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  • you and Matthew  and others here are wrong on the issue for you believe a non catholic jew freemason from the pits of hell who is trying to destroy the Church of Christ is your pope
    He's not from the pits of hell...
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    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #25 on: December 23, 2019, 09:32:40 PM »
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  • Indeed, if all the Traditional Catholic bishops and priests united to select a Pope, then I'd say you would have something there.  But due to the theological fragmentation among Traditional Catholics, it does not appear as if any such consensus would be possible in the foreseeable future.
    I agree.  And there certainly is fragmentation but that doesn’t mean there is no communication at all.  In fact, I’m pretty sure elections have been discussed recently.  But it is a very tricky thing to get right.  If there isn’t a significant acceptance of the pope, it will immediately become a doubtful situation.  It’s really hard to get trads to agree on anything.  So it could happen but not without a lot of prayer and penance.  Ideally, the sspx would also accept the results.  But maybe that’s not  realistic.  I’m speaking here of Catholic bishops.  Matthew is absolutely right.  The hierarchy of the Church elects popes, not the laity.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #26 on: December 23, 2019, 09:36:16 PM »
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  • I agree.  And there certainly is fragmentation but that doesn’t mean there is no communication at all.  In fact, I’m pretty sure elections have been discussed recently.  But it is a very tricky thing to get right.  If there isn’t a significant acceptance of the pope, it will immediately become a doubtful situation.  It’s really hard to get trads to agree on anything.  So it could happen but not without a lot of prayer and penance.  Ideally, the sspx would also accept the results.  But maybe that’s not  realistic.  

    So you would be a conclavist, if there were sufficient support for it.

    This more or less evinces the schismatic sedevacantist spirit.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #27 on: December 23, 2019, 09:42:15 PM »
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  • So you would be a conclavist, if there were sufficient support for it.

    This more or less evinces the schismatic sedevacantist spirit.
    All Catholics are “conclavists” during a sede vacante.  There is no other way to obtain a pope.  Unbelievable that you would mock sedes for not electing a pope and then minutes later accuse them of schism for discussing an election.  Get your head out of your ass!

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #28 on: December 23, 2019, 09:56:59 PM »
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  • All Catholics are “conclavists” during a sede vacante.  There is no other way to obtain a pope.  Unbelievable that you would mock sedes for not electing a pope and then minutes later accuse them of schism for discussing an election.  Get your head out of your ass!

    Claudel-

    I expect a long, loquacious diatribe about Clemens' profanity.

    Oh yes, I definitely mock the schismatics.

    You should definitely, to be consistent, elect a fake pope.

    It only highlights your disguised schismatic mentality, which sometimes needs to be provoked out of you (as in this instance).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #29 on: December 24, 2019, 12:22:19 AM »
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  • Yes, if sede-ism was actually true, they would have correctly elected a Pope decades ago, and he would have received universal acceptance. The Pope receiving universal acceptance in the Church is the work of the Holy Ghost. When God does not approve of an election, He will not give UA. 

    Here's why the situation doesn't resolve for the sedes: Only the Roman Clergy strictly have the right to elect the Roman Pontiff. But only the Roman Pontiff can appoint or incardinate Roman Clergy, among whom the Cardinals are the chief. Thus, the sedes are looking for Roman Clergy incardinated into the Roman Church to whom they can say "you are the electors of the Pope". But all those electors recognize the Pope. +ABL said, "The subsequent unanimous acceptance of the Cardinals and the Roman Clergy suffices to validate it (the Papal election). That is the teaching of theologians". So, sede-ism will go nowhere until they have Roman Clergy, which they don't.

    The very fact that all the Roman Clergy recognize the recent Popes should be, as +ABL said, a sufficient proof that they are the Popes. 

    Next, some sedes will claim, if the Roman Clergy don't elect, then - supposedly - any group of Bishops, even vagrant Bishops without ordinary jurisdiction - again supposedly - can get together and elect. This too leads to stalemate, because no one knows who these Bishops are, how many there should be, what agreement is sufficient etc. And all that besides the fact that the SSPV, CMRI etc don't work together and SSPV believes CMRI and Thuc line orders to be invalid. If Christianity depended on sede-ism, Christianity would end.

    All this because of simple unwillingness to accept the Dogma of Perpetual Papal Successors and acknowledge the plain fact that the Popes have truly been Popes.