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Author Topic: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!  (Read 6981 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
« Reply #150 on: January 01, 2020, 02:43:49 PM »
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  • I am certainly fascinated by Cardinal Siri, because of the incontrovertible proof that something ... let us say ... not according to plan happened in the 1958 election, and I think knowing what exactly that was would help a lot in discerning our path today, but again, I see a lot of problems with the idea that Siri remained pope until his death.

    Sure, we know that something nefarious definitely happened during those conclaves.  Siri himself admitted in an interview that very grave things took place, but that he could not speak of them due to the vow of secrecy.  Roncalli had been told beforehand that he would be elected, and he tipped his hand on his way to the conclave that he knew he would be elected.  I think there's little doubt but that Roncalli was a Masonic/Communist plant in the papacy.  Whether they threatened Siri to get him in there or made other nefarious arrangements, at this point probably God only knows.  Roncalli also convened a secret meeting in the conclave on the night after his election, a very unusual step, and he made everyone swear to the secrecy of what had transpired there.

    As for tacit resignation for failing to assume office, the report is that Siri did accept it and took the name Gregory XVII.  [including from the purported FBI docuмent cited by Paul Williams].  So it's not quite the same as never assuming office.  Now, once a Pope assumes office, there's no human means to legitimately remove him (except of course by killing him).  We had a discussion about this on another thread.  Certainly, it's possible for there to be morally-speaking "human acts" done under duress.  But what may be a human act (at the end of the day Siri did will to step down) is not necessarily a canonically-free act.  If someone holds a gun to my head and says, "resign," I do have a choice in my free will.  I could refuse and accept the consequences.  So in a sense my decision to resign is morally-free because I COULD have done otherwise, but that does not mean it was canonically free.  Also, Siri said that he told some of the Cardinals during the first few ballots (where he was leading) that he did not want to be Pope.  So between his initial personal unwillingness and his subsequent morally-free act to resign, Siri may have thought of himself as having resigned when in fact the resignation was not valid due to the duress.  Now, this would make sense of the phrase "uncanonically elected pope" in the St. Francis prophecy ... although it could also have to do with other canonical irregularities (conspiracy to elect) or even to the Team Bergoglio problem with that election.

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #151 on: January 02, 2020, 05:52:43 PM »
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  • As for tacit resignation for failing to assume office, the report is that Siri did accept it and took the name Gregory XVII.  [including from the purported FBI docuмent cited by Paul Williams].  So it's not quite the same as never assuming office.  Now, once a Pope assumes office, there's no human means to legitimately remove him (except of course by killing him). 
    Let's suppose for the sake of argument that Cardinal Siri accepted the papacy that dark night, of October 26, 1958. He became Pope Gregory XVII. Then, according to our hypothesis, he was threatened with some dire catastrophe if he didn't resign. He resigned out of fear, which would be invalid, and remained pope during the election of Roncalli.
    .
    So far, so good. He's still pope.
    .
    My problem has to do with the next 30 years of his life, in which he just went back home to Genoa and conducted business as usual for the rest of his life. He never claimed to be pope or attempted to perform the duties of the papacy. This is a sign that he did not consider himself to be the pope, and Canon Law indicates this kind of behavior as a form of tacit renunciation of the office. If you read canon 188 of the code of Canon Law (1917 code), it tells us how someone may tacitly resign from office. It lists several scenarios that constitute tacit renunciation (among them is a public renunciation of the Catholic Faith, which Mr. Bergoglio should pay attention to, but I digress), and one of them (#2) is if the cleric does not assume the office within the time appointed by law, or if there is no law, the time appointed by the ordinary.
    .
    Now, we can argue that this law does not apply to the pope, but still, it's a reflection of a basic idea of reality, that being appointed to some office including the papacy is not like getting a library card that you can stick in your wallet and forget about for the next several decades, and just go home and live your life as if nothing happened, while still retaining that office. Once Cardinal Siri left Rome after the conclave and went back to Genoa and continued to live as a cardinal, he made it clear that he had no intention of claiming to be pope or performing the office of the papacy. To say that this would invalidate the elections of Montini, Luciani and Wojtyla is like saying they couldn't receive the papacy because Cardinal Siri had received the papacy many years earlier and had stuck it in his back pocket and forgotten it was there, so they couldn't receive it. It's an idea that just doesn't make a whole lot of sense.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #152 on: January 02, 2020, 06:01:35 PM »
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  • This docuмent says nothing about Siri having been elected and taken the name Gregory XVII.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #153 on: January 02, 2020, 06:04:31 PM »
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  • My problem has to do with the next 30 years of his life, in which he just went back home to Genoa and conducted business as usual for the rest of his life. He never claimed to be pope or attempted to perform the duties of the papacy. This is a sign that he did not consider himself to be the pope, and Canon Law indicates this kind of behavior as a form of tacit renunciation of the office. If you read canon 188 of the code of Canon Law (1917 code), it tells us how someone may tacitly resign from office. It lists several scenarios that constitute tacit renunciation (among them is a public renunciation of the Catholic Faith, which Mr. Bergoglio should pay attention to, but I digress), and one of them (#2) is if the cleric does not assume the office within the time appointed by law, or if there is no law, the time appointed by the ordinary.

    I know.  I saw this before, but this refers to "not assuming" the office in the first place.  We had a number of Popes "check out" and spend most of their time hunting and with mistresses.  Heck, if only Bergoglio had done the same, checked out and done nothing.  We'd be better off.

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #154 on: January 02, 2020, 06:25:19 PM »
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  • This docuмent says nothing about Siri having been elected and taken the name Gregory XVII.
    Yeah, sorry about that. That was something I saw a long time ago and I posted it here without reading through it again. It didn't actually say what I thought it said.


    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #155 on: January 02, 2020, 06:30:46 PM »
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  • I know.  I saw this before, but this refers to "not assuming" the office in the first place.  We had a number of Popes "check out" and spend most of their time hunting and with mistresses.  Heck, if only Bergoglio had done the same, checked out and done nothing.  We'd be better off.
    That depends on what you mean by "assuming" an office. I think it's more than saying you accept an office. It seems in the Code that it means "assuming the duties of the office", something Cardinal Siri never did with the papacy. Obviously, if someone says they accept an office and then never fulfill the duties of the office, that's a problem that the Code is dealing with in the canon I cited.
    .
    We had a number of Popes "check out" and spend most of their time hunting and with mistresses.
    .
    But they didn't tell people to call them "Your Eminence" instead of "Your Holiness", they didn't wear red instead of white, and they didn't call themselves "Cardinal X". They also didn't -- which is a far greater problem -- allow someone else to claim to be pope at the same time, unchallenged, and even accept the other person as pope. Also, they were accepted by the whole Church as pope during their reign, something not the case with Cardinal Siri.
    .
    In any case, if Cardinal Siri were really pope for all those years, accepting the subsequent Vatican 2 "popes" as popes would be an act of schism, severing him from the Church and voiding his office.
    .
    EDIT slight changes

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #156 on: January 02, 2020, 07:16:07 PM »
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  • Yeah, sorry about that. That was something I saw a long time ago and I posted it here without reading through it again. It didn't actually say what I thought it said.

    People have actually tried to track the docuмent down, but it has mysteriously disappeared.  Probably something that got accidentally declassified and then got wrapped up quickly once they realized the gravity of what had come out.

    Offline roscoe

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    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #157 on: January 02, 2020, 07:36:40 PM »
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  • That depends on what you mean by "assuming" an office. I think it's more than saying you accept an office. It seems in the Code that it means "assuming the duties of the office", something Cardinal Siri never did with the papacy. Obviously, if someone says they accept an office and then never fulfill the duties of the office, that's a problem that the Code is dealing with in the canon I cited.
    .
    We had a number of Popes "check out" and spend most of their time hunting and with mistresses.
    .
    But they didn't tell people to call them "Your Eminence" instead of "Your Holiness", they didn't wear red instead of white, and they didn't call themselves "Cardinal X". They also didn't -- which is a far greater problem -- allow someone else to claim to be pope at the same time, unchallenged, and even accept the other person as pope. Also, they were accepted by the whole Church as pope during their reign, something not the case with Cardinal Siri.
    .
    In any case, if Cardinal Siri were really pope for all those years, accepting the subsequent Vatican 2 "popes" as popes would be an act of schism, severing him from the Church and voiding his office.
    .
    EDIT slight changes
    Since your post refers to " a number" could you give a few examples of Popes who were reported to ..."check out" ........ & who exactly are you quoting here? :confused:
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'


    Offline jerm

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    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #158 on: January 03, 2020, 11:41:33 AM »
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  • Just getting to this topic now, but I certainly agree with you, Matthew. Sedevacantism (and sedeprivationism, for that matter) are seriously problematic, but I've talked with so many adherents to those opinions who believe that they're not only certain, but that it's obvious that they are. Many people build their entire worldviews on it.

    A lot of the citations about the ability of the Church to exit Rome used to defend sedevacantists are very, very poor. For instance, Cardinal Billot's quotes are usually used to defend an imperfect council to elect a new Pope, but Billot actually implies a need for the election to be done with Roman clergy, whereas, since there is no ordinary jurisdiction and no actual Roman clergy left with the sedevacantist ones (or SSPX ones for that matter), it doesn't seem possible to elect a Pope. Plus, the sedevacantists don't even agree as to whether or not most of their clergy are heretics concerning Baptism of Desire and Invincible Ignorance, and many sedevacantists have flat out excommunicated one another. Their ecclesiology is probably even worse off than the Orthodox.

    Then there is the matter of this quote from the Syllabus of Errors: "There is nothing to prevent the decree of a general council, or the act of all peoples, from transferring the supreme pontificate from the bishop and city of Rome to another bishop and another city." (This was condemned, not accepted.) 

    The only situation where something like this could happen is like with the Avignon Papacies, where the Bishop of Rome and his college of Cardinals actually went to a different location together. Hence, it was clear that the Church was alive and well at this time, regardless of who the Pope was (we now know it was Pope Martin V, but in the schism, no one knew for sure). If the Church isn't in Rome, it needs to be identified with the Bishop of Rome and the clergy appointed by him, but according to sedevacantists, there is no clergy presently appointed by a real Pope, nor an actual Pope to speak of. So, at the very best, there is a Church that's not visible, which is impossible.

    I think this is why the sedevacantist clergy haven't elected a Pope: they can't. They can use sedeprivationism as an out, but I really don't think it's a strong out. If there's any need to restore the Papacy, as all sedeprivationists agree, then the Papacy has defected. But the Papacy is indefectible: it can never defect. This doesn't mean it's only impossible for the Papacy to whither out and be impossible to restore... it means that it can never defect in any way.

    This is nothing against many sedevacantists who are honest in that it's simply a theological opinion, but MANY sedevacantists go way too far and start anathematizing people who disagree for honest reasons.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #159 on: January 03, 2020, 01:26:28 PM »
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  • Just getting to this topic now, but I certainly agree with you, Matthew. Sedevacantism (and sedeprivationism, for that matter) are seriously problematic, but I've talked with so many adherents to those opinions who believe that they're not only certain, but that it's obvious that they are. Many people build their entire worldviews on it.

    And ... how long have you been a Catholic?

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #160 on: January 03, 2020, 02:11:13 PM »
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  • There's that prophecy of St. Francis that there would be an "uncanonically-elected pope" who would wreak havoc on the Church and would be a "destroyer".
    That doesn't add up.
    1. The alleged Siri election was in 1958. We had a lot more than ONE pope since then.
    2. The "destroyer", if you want to apply that to Pope Francis, wasn't until MANY popes later!


    Cardinal Siri died May 2, 1989

    So the Siri hypothesis solves NOTHING with regards to the Crisis in the Church and the Pope question.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #161 on: January 03, 2020, 02:12:43 PM »
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  • Let's suppose for the sake of argument that Cardinal Siri accepted the papacy that dark night, of October 26, 1958. He became Pope Gregory XVII. Then, according to our hypothesis, he was threatened with some dire catastrophe if he didn't resign. He resigned out of fear, which would be invalid, and remained pope during the election of Roncalli.
    .
    So far, so good. He's still pope.
    .
    My problem has to do with the next 30 years of his life, in which he just went back home to Genoa and conducted business as usual for the rest of his life. He never claimed to be pope or attempted to perform the duties of the papacy. This is a sign that he did not consider himself to be the pope, and Canon Law indicates this kind of behavior as a form of tacit renunciation of the office. If you read canon 188 of the code of Canon Law (1917 code), it tells us how someone may tacitly resign from office. It lists several scenarios that constitute tacit renunciation (among them is a public renunciation of the Catholic Faith, which Mr. Bergoglio should pay attention to, but I digress), and one of them (#2) is if the cleric does not assume the office within the time appointed by law, or if there is no law, the time appointed by the ordinary.
    .
    Now, we can argue that this law does not apply to the pope, but still, it's a reflection of a basic idea of reality, that being appointed to some office including the papacy is not like getting a library card that you can stick in your wallet and forget about for the next several decades, and just go home and live your life as if nothing happened, while still retaining that office. Once Cardinal Siri left Rome after the conclave and went back to Genoa and continued to live as a cardinal, he made it clear that he had no intention of claiming to be pope or performing the office of the papacy. To say that this would invalidate the elections of Montini, Luciani and Wojtyla is like saying they couldn't receive the papacy because Cardinal Siri had received the papacy many years earlier and had stuck it in his back pocket and forgotten it was there, so they couldn't receive it. It's an idea that just doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

    You just KILLED the Siri hypothesis. Well done! Awesome points. And this is why I think the Siri hypothesis is weak at best and stupid at worst.

    And furthermore, what about Pope Benedict who was elected after the death of Siri? I thought Pope Francis was supposed to be the un-canonically elected "Destroyer" of the St. Francis prophecy? And Cardinal Siri was dead at BOTH of their elections -- how could a dead pope prevent another pope from being elected validly?

    Was the whole College of Cardinals "tainted" (think: contagious cooties) by going with a false pope for so long, and so they couldn't ever elect a valid pope again?

    It doesn't add up. The Siri hypothesis is stupid and solves nothing. It must have originated in the minds of 10 year olds. Not very bright 10 year olds, I might add.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #162 on: January 03, 2020, 02:19:21 PM »
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  • the idea that Siri had sniper rifles trained on him at every moment for the next 30 years of his life, which is the image I get when I read the explanations of Gary Giuffre and his buddies.
    .
    But let's suppose he didn't accept the office because he thought he had resigned, even though his resignation hadn't been valid because of duress. Would that mean he would be pope without knowing it for the next 30 years? I really have to question that. If he doesn't assume the office and begin to exercise it within a reasonable amount of time, and has no intention of doing so, then I think that would be tantamount to resignation in itself. In canon law it even says that failure to assume a new office within a reasonable amount of time leads to tacit resignation.
    This.
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    Offline Matto

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    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #163 on: January 03, 2020, 02:47:19 PM »
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  • It doesn't add up. The Siri hypothesis is stupid and solves nothing. It must have originated in the minds of 10 year olds. Not very bright 10 year olds, I might add.

    Well I think the Siri thesis makes more sense than regular sedevacantism or sedeprivationism. Especially if one is drawn to believe in ʝʊdɛօ-Masonic cօռspιʀαcιҽs (as I am and you are). So if the Siri thesis was made up by stupid 10-year olds, then sedevacantism and sedeprivationism must have come from the minds of stupid 7-year olds. Now if I say this one might come back and tell me that Guerard des Lauriers was the brightest mind among all traditionalists who ever lived . . . and Thuc knew seven languages . . .
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.

    Offline jerm

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    Re: Sedevacantists self-contradict - most aren't conclavist!
    « Reply #164 on: January 03, 2020, 03:21:50 PM »
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  • And ... how long have you been a Catholic?
    I've been looking into this question for much longer than that, for about eight months, while I was discerning the faith. When I was figuring out where to be baptized, I looked into sedevacantism a lot.