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Author Topic: Crossing the Sedehold of Hope.  (Read 4962 times)

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Offline Nishant

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Crossing the Sedehold of Hope.
« Reply #45 on: October 06, 2013, 02:32:35 PM »
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  • The visibility of the Roman Catholic Church is tied,

    (i) To the Roman Pontiff when there is one, and the Roman Church in an interregnum, namely the clergy incardinated into the diocese of Rome and

    (ii) To the hierarchy throughout the world, namely the bishops who have succession from the Apostles, with both orders and jurisdiction.

    Apostolic succession is an external mark and is critical to the question of visibility. It is like genealogical succession from King David the Messiah was to have and which Christ Our Lord demonstrated.

    Bishops without the power of jurisdiction do not have formal Apostolic succession. Now, individual bishops who do not have ordinary jurisdiction pose no doctrinal problem to an explanation of the crisis, but if your explanation leads you to the conclusion that there are no such bishops in the whole Church, then you need to rethink or modify some aspect of your explanation, because that conclusion is heretical. The same First Vatican Council says,  

    Quote
    Just as he sent apostles, whom he chose out of the world , even as he had been sent by the Father, in like manner it was his will that in his Church there should be shepherds and teachers until the end of time.

    In order, then, that the episcopal office should be one and undivided and that, by the union of the clergy, the whole multitude of believers should be held together in the unity of faith and communion, he set blessed Peter over the rest of the apostles and instituted in him the permanent principle of both unities and their visible foundation.


    Now, as is evident here, and as any theology manual will tell you in any case, the shepherds and teachers who are sent are those who have full and formal succession from the Apostles, including the power of jurisdiction.

    This also provides an answer as to how and where the perpetual Petrine sucession comes into it. The Apostolic sucession itself is closely interconnected with the Petrine succession, so that if the one indefinitely ceases, the other will as well. The conclusion of an indefinitely extended interregnum, then, would be that the Catholic Church would cease to be Apostolic, which is an inadmissible conclusion.

    If you take cuм Ex as your guide, by the way, this is evident, for that very bull says clearly, as is obvious, that a heretic non-Pope would grant neither stability nor right to anyone, so that the bishops he appoints would have no office or jurisdiction at all.

    Dear Jerry, for the record, I agree with you and with St. Robert on the specific question of whether the Pope who becomes a heretic will lose his jurisdiction. But the other opinion, that of Suarez, Cajetan, John of St. Thomas and others, that the Pope would lose his authority only at that moment when the sentence is passed on him by the Church, is also a permitted theological opinion.

    But Cardinal Billot isn't talking about that, (nor is St. Alphonsus contradicting himself) he is introducing a superior principle worthy of consideration, hardly taken into account by sedevacantists today, with some exceptions.

    Quote
    "Finally, what one may think of the possibility or the impossibility of an heretical pope, there is at least one point absolutely clear which no one can put in doubt, and it is that the acceptance, the adherence, of the Universal Church to a pope will always be, by itself, the infallible sign of the legitimacy of such-and-such a pontiff; and consequently of the existence of all the conditions required for legitimacy."


    For the record, I don't think most sedevacantists are schismatic, just mistaken about something they have in most cases not thought through sufficiently in good faith.

    But I'm afraid your statement "The magisterium of the Church has never taught that there must be a certain number of bishops or the faithful for the Church to exist. As long as there are at least one priest or bishop and at least a few faithful , the Church and the hierarchy are alive and visible" is not correct, since the power of jurisdiction given to the Apostles being handed down is essential to Apostolic succession.

    Dear Cantarella, some specifics aside (like that about Pope Honorius), I agree with the gist of what you say. May God send us a holy Pope, a shepherd after His own heart.

    “The most evident mark of God’s anger and the most terrible castigation He can inflict upon the world are manifested when He permits His people to fall into the hands of clergy who are priests more in name than in deed, priests who practice the cruelty of ravening wolves rather than charity and affection of devoted shepherds ...

    “When God permits such things, it is a very positive proof that He is thoroughly angry with His people, and is visiting His most dreadful anger upon them. That is why He cries unceasingly to Christians, ‘Return O ye revolting children ... and I will give you pastors according to My own heart’. (Jer. 3:14,15)
    "Never will anyone who says his Rosary every day become a formal heretic ... This is a statement I would sign in my blood." St. Montfort, Secret of the Rosary. I support the FSSP, the SSPX and other priests who work for the restoration of doctrinal orthodoxy and liturgical orthopraxis in the Church. I accept Vatican II if interpreted in the light of Tradition and canonisations as an infallible declaration that a person is in Heaven. Sedevacantism is schismatic and Ecclesiavacantism is heretical.


    Offline SJB

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    « Reply #46 on: October 06, 2013, 03:29:46 PM »
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  • Quote from: Cantarella
    Quote from: Charlemagne
    Cantarella, I ask this in all sincerity, as I have gone back and forth over this in my mind for a long time: What exactly does "perpetual" mean in the context set forth by Vatican I? I'm a technical editor, so I work with phrases and their exact meanings for a living, and I still believe that words have meaning. The primary definition of "perpetual" is "continuing or enduring forever; everlasting." The primary definition of "continuous," however, is "uninterrupted in time; without cessation." It seems to me that those who continually quote "perpetual successors" from Vatican I in an attempt to disprove sedevacantism, even as simply a theological opinion or conclusion, desire to attach the meaning of "continuous" to "perpetual." I have no doubt whatsoever that the office of the Papacy is endless, but I don't know of any official Church teaching that restricts the election of a papal successor to a certain time limit.

    As I stated, I'm sincere when I ask what "perpetual" meant when put forth by the Fathers of Vatican I, and I would love it if someone would enlighten me. Perhaps a new thread would be in order?


    I can understand the  difference between "perpetual" and "continuous" and how a sedevancantist could argue that this does not constitute a proof that the Chair of Peter could not have been vacant for half a century.

    However, the problem of the visibility of the Church still remains. The Roman Pontiff is the principle of the Church’s visibility. Sedevacantists end up with an invisible Church, kind of a Protestant church, made up of believers "spiritually" subject to the Faith.  Many sedevacantists end up in fact being "home alone" and not attending Mass at all, nor even taking the sacraments, since according to them, all priests are either heretics, or schismatics. This is not Catholicism.

    The visibility of the Catholic Church is tied to the visible foundation of the Vicar of Christ.


    Quote from: Franzelin
    16.  " ...When the Pope dies, says Cano [a leading theologian of the 16th century], the Church, without doubt, remains *one*, and the *Spirit of truth* remains in her; but she is left crippled [manca] and diminished without the Vicar of Christ and the one pastor of the Catholic Church.
     Therefore, although *truth even then is in the Church*; but if CONTROVERSIES OVER THE FAITH AND RELIGION SHOULD ARISE, *THE JUDGMENTS OF THE CHURCH* which is without a head on earth *WILL NOT BE AS CERTAIN*."  (Ibid. p. 223)

    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil


    Offline 2Vermont

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    « Reply #47 on: October 06, 2013, 03:47:13 PM »
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  • Quote from: SJB
    Quote from: Franzelin
    16.  " ...When the Pope dies, says Cano [a leading theologian of the 16th century], the Church, without doubt, remains *one*, and the *Spirit of truth* remains in her; but she is left crippled [manca] and diminished without the Vicar of Christ and the one pastor of the Catholic Church.
     Therefore, although *truth even then is in the Church*; but if CONTROVERSIES OVER THE FAITH AND RELIGION SHOULD ARISE, *THE JUDGMENTS OF THE CHURCH* which is without a head on earth *WILL NOT BE AS CERTAIN*."  (Ibid. p. 223)




    Interesting.  This sounds exactly like what has happened post-Vatican II:  the judgments of the church without a head on earth have not been as certain.

    Coincidence?

    It's as if the Pope has been dead since Vatican II.

    Oh, wait.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline 2Vermont

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    « Reply #48 on: October 06, 2013, 03:52:21 PM »
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  • Sorry about the formatting. I have no idea how to fix it even though I just edited it about 25 times...lol.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Malleus 01

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    « Reply #49 on: October 06, 2013, 06:12:27 PM »
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  • Quote from: Nishant
    Quote
    I have yet to see this proven.


    It can be proven in many ways, two in particular, one shorter and one more lengthy. The first was discussed in the article, as according to the teaching of St. Alphonsus, Cardinal Billot and other most eminent authorities, the acceptance of a Papal election by the whole Church, in particular by the hierarchy, is an infallible sign and effect of a valid election, and therefore proves definitely that all the conditions required for validity, even in the internal forum, are satisfied.

    Malleus The fact that an Election may have taken place doesnt mean a Heretic can assume the Papacy. One must always be Catholic in order to be elected Pope and in addition even Scripture itself describes the Anti Christ as sitting on the throne but Scripture never States it is a good thing or even that Catholics should follow him but rather beware that he will one day come .  Are we to now assume so long as an election takes place we are to follow   Anti Christ?  Did our Lord not warn us to beware of false Prophets who come clothed as sheep but inwardly are as ravening wolves?  What fruits do you see today?  Where you see a "Valid Election" we see a man who doesnt even practice or proclaim the Catholic faith and by those fruits do we know him.

    The other is slightly more lengthy, and goes like this. It is received Catholic doctrine, recognized almost unanimously even by sedevacantists, that (i) Only a Pope can appoint a bishop to an office, thereby conferring on his person the power of ordinary jurisdiction attached to it (ii) All offices of the Church cannot be vacant, this being required by the Apostolicity of the Church. Formal Apostolic succession requires the succession of persons to an episcopal see.

    Malleus: Apostolic Succession is through the Bishops not the Pope.  Even the Schismatic Orthodox have Valid Apostolic Orders and that schism is 1000 years old.  Granted , they are illicit - but Valid nonetheless. As for choosing a True Pope - Our Lord Chose St Peter - The Council of Constance chose Pope Martin V - or say perhaps the Orthodox were to abjur en mass because Our Lady who asked us to pray for Russia - The prayers were answered?  There are many ways in which a true universal Pope could emerge.  Nothing is impossible with GOD.


    Taking the two of these considerations from doctrine together, combined with the facts of the alleged ongoing vacancy in the Holy See since 1958, we are left with the following conclusion - Since just about every bishop appointed by Pope Pius XII has either died or resigned his office, the Catholic Church, under sedevacantism, has ceased to be Apostolic, does not have a hierarchy having formal Apostolic succession, which is impossible.

    That is a sufficient demonstration of the impossibility of 55 year sedevacantism.

    Sorry , But GOD's will will be done.  Look no farther than the "OUR Father"  and besides that - we know from Fatima that in the End Her Immaculate Heart will triumph.



    Offline Hobbledehoy

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    « Reply #50 on: October 06, 2013, 06:43:15 PM »
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  • Quote from: Malleus 01
    Apostolic Succession is through the Bishops not the Pope.  Even the Schismatic Orthodox have Valid Apostolic Orders and that schism is 1000 years old.  Granted , they are illicit - but Valid nonetheless.


    This is not correct. The Pope is the sole source of jurisdiction, being the sole and supreme legislator as Vicar of Christ, and only the Supreme Pontiff can appoint Bishops as successors of the Apostles. Valid Episcopal consecration alone does not suffice to make bishops successors of the Apostles and thereby have them attain to and exercise ordinary jurisdiction. You need Apostolic mandate for a Bishop to claim such a thing.

    The Oriental schismatics do have valid Orders, but not formal Apostolic succession. They have only material Apostolicity, with only supplied jurisdiction to be used in those instances necessitated by the greater good of souls. And this only because the Orders, the Sacraments, &c., that these schismatics have are the treasures proper to Holy Mother Church alone. They are pilfered by bastard children who have refused obedience to the successor of St. Peter.

    When it comes to the bishops of the Catholic traditionalist movement, they can only claim to be enabled to exercise supplied jurisdiction in the instances mentioned above, and in those instances alone. They cannot claim to have Canonical mission and therefore cannot claim formal Apostolicity. This is especially so with those sedevacantist bishops who claim that there is no Pope who can give the requisite mandate.

    To propose the contrary is a very rash and perilous thing, and it is detrimental to the primacy of the Supreme Pontiff and to the hierarchical nature of the Church.

    It is not an attack upon the sedevacantists to emphasize these realities. In fact, it is a great disservice and detriment to charity to be culpable of negligence in this regard. The acceptance of this reality serves to make the traditionalist clergy all the more humble, self-abased and self-abandoned unto the designs of Divine Providence.

    This is the case with the CMRI Fathers, who rely on total consecration to Our Lord through His Blessed Mother and who frankly admit that they cannot claim jurisdiction, mission nor formal Apostolicity.
    Please ignore all that I have written regarding sedevacantism.

    Offline Nishant

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    « Reply #51 on: October 07, 2013, 02:30:47 PM »
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  • Dear Malleus, I agree with what Hobbledehoy has said. Some references for what I'd said earlier,

    Quote from: Catholic Encyclopedia
    In explaining the concept of Apostolicity, then, special attention must be given to Apostolicity of mission, or Apostolic succession. Apostolicity of mission means that the Church is one moral body, possessing the mission entrusted by Jesus Christ to the Apostles, and transmitted through them and their lawful successors in an unbroken chain to the present representatives of Christ upon earth. This authoritative transmission of power in the Church constitutes Apostolic succession.

    This Apostolic succession must be both material and formal; the material consisting in the actual succession in the Church, through a series of persons from the Apostolic age to the present; the formal adding the element of authority in the transmission of power. It consists in the legitimate transmission of the ministerial power conferred by Christ upon His Apostles.


    Quote from: Herrmann, Theologiæ Dogmaticæ Institutiones


    Succession may be material or formal. Material succession consists in the fact that there have never been lacking persons who have continuously been substituted for the Apostles ; formal succession consists in the fact that these substituted persons truly enjoy authority derived from the Apostles and received from him who is able to communicate it.

    For someone to be made a successor of the Apostles and pastor of the Church, the power of order — which is always validly conferred by virtue of ordination — is not enough; the power of jurisdiction is also required, and this is conferred not by virtue of ordination but by virtue of a mission received from him to whom Christ has entrusted the supreme power over the universal Church.


    Quote from:  Fr. Sylvester Hunter, Outlines of Dogmatic Theology
    First, then, the Church is infallible when she declares what person holds the office of Pope; for if the person of the Pope were uncertain, it would be uncertain what Bishops were in communion with the Pope; but according to the Catholic faith, as will be proved hereafter, communion with the Pope is a condition for the exercise of the function of teaching by the body of Bishops (n. 208); if then the uncertainty could not be cleared up, the power of teaching could not he exercised, and Christ’s promise (St. Matt. xxviii. 20; and n. 199, II.) would be falsified, which is impossible.

    This argument is in substance the same as applies to other cases of dogmatic facts. Also, it affords an answer to a much vaunted objection to the claims of the Catholic Church, put forward by writers who think that they find proof in history that the election of a certain Pope was simoniacal and invalid, and that the successor was elected by Cardinals who owed their own appointment to the simoniacal intruder; from which it is gathered that the Papacy has been vacant ever since that time. A volume might be occupied if we attempted to expose all the frailness of the argument which is supposed to lead to this startling conclusion; but it is enough to say that if the Bishops agree in recognizing a certain man as Pope, they are certainly right, for otherwise the body of the Bishops would be separated from their head, and the Divine constitution of the Church would be ruined.


    Quote from: Cardinal Billot, De Ecclesia Christi
    "God some times can allow that the vacancy of the Apostolic See be for a certain time. He can allow also that a doubt may come concerning the legitimacy of such-and-such an election, but He cannot allow that the whole Church accept as a pontiff one who is not really legitimate. Therefore, from the moment that the pope is accepted by the Church and is united to Her as the head to the body, we can no longer raise the doubt on the possible bias of election or the possible lack of the necessary conditions for legitimacy. Because this adherence of the Church heals in its root all faults committed at the moment of election, and proves infallibly the existence of all the conditions required."
    "Never will anyone who says his Rosary every day become a formal heretic ... This is a statement I would sign in my blood." St. Montfort, Secret of the Rosary. I support the FSSP, the SSPX and other priests who work for the restoration of doctrinal orthodoxy and liturgical orthopraxis in the Church. I accept Vatican II if interpreted in the light of Tradition and canonisations as an infallible declaration that a person is in Heaven. Sedevacantism is schismatic and Ecclesiavacantism is heretical.

    Offline ThomisticPhilosopher

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    « Reply #52 on: October 10, 2013, 03:38:01 AM »
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  • Quote from: Sunbeam
    Quote from: Charlemagne
    Cantarella, I ask this in all sincerity, as I have gone back and forth over this in my mind for a long time: What exactly does "perpetual" mean in the context set forth by Vatican I? I'm a technical editor, so I work with phrases and their exact meanings for a living, and I still believe that words have meaning. The primary definition of "perpetual" is "continuing or enduring forever; everlasting." The primary definition of "continuous," however, is "uninterrupted in time; without cessation." It seems to me that those who continually quote "perpetual successors" from Vatican I in an attempt to disprove sedevacantism, even as simply a theological opinion or conclusion, desire to attach the meaning of "continuous" to "perpetual." I have no doubt whatsoever that the office of the Papacy is endless, but I don't know of any official Church teaching that restricts the election of a papal successor to a certain time limit.

    Furthermore, words and their meanings must always be taken in the context of the way they were understood when written or spoken. A perfect example is "worship." If any of us here today were to post on a public forum - even this one - that Catholics worship the Blessed Virgin Mary, he would be corrected quickly. "No, we worship only God!" would be the retort. If one would have said in the middle of the 16th century, however, that we worship the Blessed Virgin, there would be no argument from anyone, for at that time, to worship was understood to mean "to show honor." If I were to say even today, however, that I worship the Blessed Virgin, I would be quite correct because "worship" means "reverent honor and homage paid to God or a sacred personage." It's very much analogous to "redeemed" versus "saved" in our own time. Francis was absolutely correct (like a broken clock) when he stated that all have been redeemed by the Blood of Christ. Because "redeemed" today is understood by many (most?) to mean "saved," however, he just further confused (and scandalized) his hearers.

    As I stated, I'm sincere when I ask what "perpetual" meant when put forth by the Fathers of Vatican I, and I would love it if someone would enlighten me. Perhaps a new thread would be in order?


    Charlemagne,
    That struck me as an exemplary post -- terse and very much to the point.

    On the question of what the Vatican Council (1870) meant by "perpetual successors":-

    1) Although he is anti-sedevacantist, Jimmy Akin seems to have got it right.
    See How Useful Is This Argument Against Sedevacantism?

    2) The comments of the late Fr Martin Stepanich OFM, found on Griff Ruby's website are helpful.
    See THE MATTER OF THE POPE


    I am certainly impressed with Jimmy Akin's ability to have been able to actually admit an invalid point. Thanks for the article!

    Good to know that even among the neo-Conciliar bloggers they have the intellectual honesty to see some false arguments. Sadly enough they are being raised by our folks at this forum! Not only that they are anathematizing that if anyone does not hold that specific view they are outside of the Church, ohh the cleverness!  :laugh2:

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