Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Sedevacantists get a REAL bad name here...  (Read 5164 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Matthew

  • Mod
  • *****
  • Posts: 31194
  • Reputation: +27111/-494
  • Gender: Male
Sedevacantists get a REAL bad name here...
« on: July 22, 2007, 10:59:06 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • http://www.vaticaninexile.com/Home.html

    I know he doesn't represent any of the sedevacantists on Cathinfo, but it's very sad.

    Matthew
    Want to say "thank you"? 
    You can send me a gift from my Amazon wishlist!
    https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

    Paypal donations: matthew@chantcd.com


    Offline Matthew

    • Mod
    • *****
    • Posts: 31194
    • Reputation: +27111/-494
    • Gender: Male
    Sedevacantists get a REAL bad name here...
    « Reply #1 on: July 22, 2007, 11:03:29 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Here is how he applies Pope Paul IV's bull to the current situation:


    cuм ex Apostolatus Officio applied to the Interregnum

    Before reading this synopsis of cuм ex please read Pope Paul IV's entire Bull written in 1559. This Bull is generally accepted as infallible across the board by Traditionalist sects. Its implications today are far reaching and yet its principles have never been applied as they ought to bring the crisis in the Church into its proper focus. If this vitally important Bull is enforced to the letter, as the 1917 Code of Canon Law provides in cases of a doubtful law or situation, the crisis is resolved and the Church is restored. Let us proceed to draw out the conclusions of this amazing legislation.
    Heresy, apostasy and/or schism must be manifest  All without exception, even Catholic leaders of nations; but especially clerics and religious, Bishops, Archbishops, Patriarchs, Cardinals and even one appearing to be Pope are declared ipso facto excommunicated if they have publicly committed heresy, apostasy or schism prior to election or promotion. These leaders or members of the hierarchy also automatically lose their offices. (Those promoting a Great Monarch fail to realize that if this Prince or noble person has committed schism by adhering to a Traditionalist sect, or has publicly abandoned the Catholic Church, he is declared unfit for his office as Monarch by cuм ex. Therefore he cannot fulfill any Catholic prophecies predicting this Monarch, since these assumed such a leader would possess the faith of previous ages (links to Modernist oath.)
    Heretical and/or schismatic clergy are reduced to the lay state  As a result of heresy, apostasy or schism, all clerics become simple laymen, (Canon 188§4). They cannot be rehabilitated, nor can they participate in any future Conclave or election. (Schism is the primary error fou
    nd today among the many Traditionalist sects. But this schism also is shot through with heresy, especially concerning the nature of the papacy.)
    No declaration is needed to suffer the effects of these censures
    No declaration of this heresy, apostasy or schism or the subsequent deposition of clerics is necessary. Even a man elected Pope who committed heresy prior to his election is automatically deposed from his office. Bishops/archbishops and cardinals especially are held to a greater responsibility in these matters than the laity; to whom more is given, more is expected.
    The false V2 Council, the "new mass" and the 1983 Code are null and void
    Nothing an heretical usurper  "pope" does, says, orders; no one he appoints or dismisses and all of his acts are null and void. Likewise null and void are the acts of any others mentioned above who became heretics, apostates and/or schismatics prior to their promotions. (So no question of deposing an heretical Pope ever arises. Such a Pope was a heretic prior to his election. One only deposes a usurper.)
    Universal obedience or acceptance does not grant validity to heretics
    Such an election or promotion of heretics and/or schismatics cannot gain any validity by seeming possession of the office, enthronement, homage paid or universal obedience rendered to one believed to be a Roman Pontiff, or by passage of any length of time in such circuмstances. Nor shall such a person obtain any sort of quasi-legitimacy. (SSPX supporters most certainly do not owe B16 and his predecessors any homage, nor can he be considered quasi-legitimate i.e., material/formal. No matter how many accept and acclaim him or how long this imposture lasts, such a heretic cannot gain validity.)
    Flee from heretics or share in their sins and censures Those who so accept or defend such an antipope whose heresy has been clearly demonstrated, or whoever he has appointed as cardinals, bishops, etc. also are excommunicated ipso facto. Cardinals, other clerics and laity who leave the service of an antipope or other heretic, immediately upon realizing that these heretics' publicly demonstrated heresy requires denunciation, are not held accountable for having once obeyed them.
    The laity may call for a papal election If a man usurping the papacy cannot be removed, all may implore the aid of the secular arm (the laity) to remove him. (No mention is made here of any "interim" government for the Church such as concocted by Traditionalists. Pope Paul IV assumes that the papacy will be re-established as soon as possible and the usurper deposed. The permission to elect a new Pope is implied, since surely if a usurper is ousted a true Pope must take his place.)
    Only a Pope canonically elected is a true Pope Obedience is owed only to the canonically established Roman Pontiff or those in obedience to him and appointed by him. Bishops not in obedience to the Roman Pontiff and priests and laity not in obedience to bishops under a true Pope are forbidden to function in any sacramental or teaching capacity. (Notice that it is presumed that a true Pope exists despite the fact that the usurper may still reign from Rome or elsewhere. The Bull also defines how this true Pope must be established, which is according to Canon Law.)
    Infallible decrees must be observed and obeyed Pope Paul IV commands Catholics to avoid heretics, apostates and schismatics as "warlocks, heathens, publicans and heresiarchs."  He warns all who would infringe his bull that they will incur the wrath of the Holy Apostles Peter and Paul.

    It is quite clear that any and all who have publicly set up Traditionalist chapels and attended these chapels are in schism. And clearly those trying to recognize JP2 and B16 as partly legitimate to claim they have jurisdiction favor the usurpers and are excommunicated. Paul IV reminds Catholics they must not associate with those outside the Church on pain of sin. If Traditionalists truly recognize the infallibility and indefectibility of the papacy; if they honestly believe that cuм ex is infallible, then they have no choice but to bring their beliefs and actions in line with this Bull and obey it if they wish to escape excommunication. That they have not done so in the 30 years that cuм ex has been available is proof positive that their pretensions to unity and reverence for the papacy are nothing more than empty words. Under Can. 1325, their manner of acting alone constitutes heresy and schism.
    Want to say "thank you"? 
    You can send me a gift from my Amazon wishlist!
    https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

    Paypal donations: matthew@chantcd.com


    Offline Matthew

    • Mod
    • *****
    • Posts: 31194
    • Reputation: +27111/-494
    • Gender: Male
    Sedevacantists get a REAL bad name here...
    « Reply #2 on: July 22, 2007, 11:06:20 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Now VERY superficially, he sounds like many other sedevacantists I've read or talked to. He even holds many of the same positions.

    Yes, most sedevacantists strongly contest his "papacy". That goes without saying.

    But honestly, it would be nice to have a sedevacantist pick apart WHERE exactly he went wrong.

    I believe his arguments (or most of them) would be very convincing to the unprepared Catholic. He sounds like he's done his homework, etc. (even if he HASN'T -- that's another story)

    Matthew
    Want to say "thank you"? 
    You can send me a gift from my Amazon wishlist!
    https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

    Paypal donations: matthew@chantcd.com

    Offline dust-7

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 199
    • Reputation: +0/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Sedevacantists get a REAL bad name here...
    « Reply #3 on: July 22, 2007, 11:26:13 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: ChantCd
    Now VERY superficially, he sounds like many other sedevacantists I've read or talked to. He even holds many of the same positions.


    Another here didn't care for prophecies and those predicting these end times and the fallen-away church. But these folks, many of them, over centuries, did refer to a true Church, a remnant, somewhat at odds with each other, not merely 'disorganized'. So, the arguments are many - Catholics arguing with each other, even as they warn people to avoid Roman Protestantism.

    In that sense, it's expected. It was foretold, predicted. Just because someone claims to be Catholic, if they depart from Catholic teaching, they would be on the same sandy ground as any Roman Protestant, any Protestant, anyone pulling away from such sound teaching. It's obvious. Even goes without saying.

    Offline Cletus

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 603
    • Reputation: +20/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Sedevacantists get a REAL bad name here...
    « Reply #4 on: July 23, 2007, 11:07:07 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • His Holiness takes the prophecies about a Great Monarch seriously. At least one other here, THIS other one, does not. The Kansan Pontiff's daydreams about the prophecies may just happen to run along different lines from those of others here.

    The poor fellow went wrong by going nuts. I mean, come on. A pope with four or five votes from obscure believers in the Sunflower State? And two voters women? But for me this is just another side of the whole Catholic prophesy/fantasy deal. Sooner or later the pious Catholic fantasist wants to step INTO the rose-colored bubble above his head. Why not just up and BE the Great Holy Pope of prophesy? Or the Great Monarch? Logical and canonical difficulties? Ah, but that's what Catholic fantasy is for, to deconstruct all those. So why not simply BE the Great Monarch or the Holy Pope?

    I have known very intelligent and clerically trained Catholics who ended up trying to live out their redemptive fantasies and making fools of themselves at best. These people always think that they are so foxy. One said, "My partner and I only published our booklets expounding our views for three and a half years." And I thought, "Sure you did. Because you think that your partner and you are Elijah and Henoch and the three and a half year period refers to something in the Apocalypse." I later learned that I had hit the nail on the head.

    I just don't get it. The Almighty Creator of the Starry Heights with His Nose in the oily ground of Gethsemane pleading to be let off the hook after all. And we should have illusions and fantasies about ANYTHING on earth after that wince-inducing episode? We should try to do what's right and hope and pray that this Apocalyptic mess might not be as horrible as it might otherwise be if we strive to inject a little down-to-earth homespun virtue into it.

    Example: the next time some pious Trad crusader says something like, "Well, these Novus Ordo dupes just let themselves be led away from Tradition," angrily stand up for the dupes and say that they were led astray by their Lawful Superiors and acted as good Catholics in being duped by them. Be honest. Be just. Be brave. Be a mensch.

    Loyalty, fairness, a peferential option for the weak and the lowly, a distrust of the high and the mighty and the puffed-up, horror of cant and hokum and "pious" untruth, honesty with a certain daring and withering anticlerical cast: these virtues are the very Soul of our Savior. It's all very well to prate on about the generic Humility and Longsuffering of the Incarnate Word, but these other odd qualities are the very Personal Historical Breath of "That One", as St John calls Him for some reason in the Greek. They are the peculiar expression on His Holy Face. For example, how unlike Him it is to say to or about particular souls once religious disaster has struck, "Well, God would never have inflicted bad prelates on good Catholics. We got the popes and the Council we deserved, and we should lament only our own failings."

    I don't find anything typically sedevacantist in Dave's pontifications. Trads of all stripes exhume ancient papal texts and work them into their systems.


    Offline dust-7

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 199
    • Reputation: +0/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Sedevacantists get a REAL bad name here...
    « Reply #5 on: July 24, 2007, 12:41:00 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Cletus
    His Holiness takes the prophecies about a Great Monarch seriously.


    Catholics still await a Pope. And as for these assorted visions compiled in Dupont and Culleton and others, I thought you had agreed to disagree.

    It sounds more like you agreed only to disagree. I get it. You don't like looking at such writings, such predictions. I just don't think a Catholic can so easily dismiss these with the wave of the hand, even if it's not so clear what they mean. Who really understands all of the Apocalypse, for example? Yet that's Holy Scriptures. And these don't contradict that.


    Quote from: Cletus

    The Kansan Pontiff's daydreams about the prophecies


    I doubt that Mary Jo and Uncle Ned can gather together and elect a Pope.

    Maybe you'd prefer to argue that there was no WWII, if you discovered someone of questionable mind who insisted that he was there, and in Bonaparte's Day, and that of the Carthaginians, Anthony, Caesar, or the Spartans, etc. Just because a man seemed to be a little nuts, doesn't mean it didn't happen. You take other sources. You verify.


    Quote from: Cletus

    The poor fellow went wrong by going nuts. I mean, come on. A pope with four or five votes from obscure believers


    It's haste, presumption and a failure to confess The Church. If a man is declared Pope, it's because he is declared Pope by the rightful successors of the Apostles and St. Peter. No Pope has been elected.

    Hopefully, that will soon change.


    Quote from: Cletus

    Or the Great Monarch?


    For someone with 'no use' for prophecy, you do seem rather obsessed with this, in a negative way.


    Quote from: Cletus

    the Great Monarch or the Holy Pope?


    The Monarch - French, or with some German - and the next Pope, together.

    You don't have to believe it. I mean, there's a stereotype about the French in combat. A famous film, desperately reworking history, but with the original commander as its principal advisor (go figure), contains a scene where two officer are walking a hallway, perhaps in the Pentagon. One says - the French Army - and the other officer says - what's that? I think it's a prejudice many of us share.

    Yet this Monarch is said to move the armies of France, and possibly those of Germany, against Islam, and then having tasted victory, against 'reform' at home. And perhaps that is when the other Pope, the true Pope, is allowed into the Vatican. Just speculation.


    Quote from: Cletus

    souls once religious disaster has struck, "Well, God would never have inflicted bad prelates on good Catholics. We got the popes and the Council we deserved, and we should lament only our own failings."


    You might dismiss it as unreasonable 'Catholic guilt'. But this has to be partly a judgment against Catholics for being lazy and taking too much for granted. It hasn't been taken away. But the institutions have, those churches have, all that great artwork and those great spaces, and so on. The Vatican. So, yes, this is something of a punishment, one predicted - which you don't seem to like. And God has provided for the remnant, which I hope you don't take for granted. And the future will be worse, but ultimately - God triumphs, as He must. Because this is not a war about who wins, it's a war for souls in the meanwhile. It's not about planting the flag, it's about capturing troops, as it were.


    Quote from: Cletus

    Trads of all stripes exhume ancient papal texts and work them into their systems.


    Well I guess Catholics do, as well, reading the encyclicals and bulls, the histories and decisions of councils, the writings of the Church fathers, and so on.

    But that's okay. It's okay.

    Offline Cletus

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 603
    • Reputation: +20/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Sedevacantists get a REAL bad name here...
    « Reply #6 on: July 24, 2007, 01:29:59 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I agreed to disagree in the other thread. You referred to "another" in this thread whom I took to be me. Therefore...

    Three or four posts on a message board do not an obsession make. Let's try to avoid that sort of nonsensical tongue-clucking "argumentation."

    I have spent a lot of time around people who WERE obsessed with so-called prophecy and seen the harm that such obsession can do. I'll gladly plead guilty to having a little mission on the subject: to pop Great Monarch and Pope of the Future balloons wherever I can. "All things are lawful to me but not all things are expedient." There is nothing WRONG with knowing and caring a lot about Great Monarch prophecy and not so much about, say, the Gospels or the history of the Church. But all that is lawful is not necessarily expedient.

    The correct analogy would be not to World War II but to Don Quixote's battle against the giants who were really windmills. I think that ALL appeal to the prophecies of the past is nutty because of the way in which cold hard reality stultifies the terms of those prophecies. The Conciliar Church is worse than heretical and apostate. Far worse. I see nothing in so-called Catholic prophesy that takes that into account. How horrendous the institution is even on the level of Natural Law, which any Moslem or orthodox Jєω or pagan conservative could see at a glance.

    Dave's nuttiness is revealed in his thinking that he is the Roman Pontiff, currently Kansan. But to think that there could ever be a Great Monarch or a Great Pope of the Future is already nutty in itself. And speaking of Dave Bawden, I did business with him for years and have no reason to think that he is nutty or objectionable in any way besides his putative popehood. I found him to be courteous and punctual and reliable. I liked his dry Midwestern manner. And his checks never bounced, in which he could be a lesson to a few other Remnants I know, pontiffs or not.

    I have never thought about the French being cowards or inept at warfare. I don't think that it's true. I think that that's an Ugly American neo-con bromide. But miraculously competent and courageous Frenchmen would be a good match for an utterly unreal Great Monarch.

    I am a sedevacantist Catholic and I am not awaiting a pope. If by some unheard-of loophole in the Catholic rules we get another one, may God's will be done. But we have no right to fantasize that another pope would be a blessing. It might be further punishment, if there is punishment in all that Vatican II involves. What if John XXIII was a pope and we get another John XXIII and the inauguration of a Council worse than Vatican II?

    I don't want a pope. I don't want another Honorius and I don't want another Pius XII and I don't want another Pius X. I want Jesus of Nazareth on His Great White Throne. I have had it with popes, good or bad, and I would think that everyone else has had it to.

    I never said that I don't like looking at writings about Great Monarchs and the like. Never said it. Never would say it. Now that I have been accused of not liking to look at such writings I have the right to speak the truth on the matter in my own way, even though some may take offense. I like those writings because they are so hilarious. They are so droll in their lameness. Look, I could use a few laughs. I think that we all could.

    I don't remember details. I vaguely recall wacky stuff like some German mystic saying that a wicked king west of the great snowy mountains (the Alps) will be defeated by a great Christian king from the lands north and east of the great snowy mountains. But turn the page and a French mystic is saying... the same thing but in opposite directions.

    Catholic Prophesy is good for pious recreation, maybe, but we should be resolved to be basically serious about all this Catholic Horror. Internet posters are real beings with real power to do good and change things for the better. Let's make a concerted effort to influence people to keep innocent kids away from new church catechetics, for example. My little thing this year is to do all that I can to prevent at least some people from ruining the Christmas of others, especially their kids, by giving them Benedict XVI's bad book about Jesus.

    Did St Wolfgang of Bamberg or whoever see US in his dreams? If not, why not? Did he see children being corrupted by priests and nuns and even Remnant Catholics being complacent towards the phenonemon because sqawking too loudly would upset the balance needed to get more True Masses rolling? Show me a prophecy about anything close to THAT and I'll take alleged prophecy about our times and the future more seriously.

    Catholics have lost a lot more than sacred real estate. Most Catholics have lost God in this world and the knowledge of Jesus and Mary.

    As for the New Pentecost as a punishment on the lowly for making the poor, poor mighty on their thrones so bad, I cite against all cold comforters the entire Book of Job and the way in which the Master set the judgmental disciples straight when they asked who had sinned, the man born blind or his parents, that he should be born blind. Just put "born to see the Vatican II church" instead of "born blind" and the a new relevance of that Gospel is clearly revealed.

    I also cite the mother of the Master, who was so wonderfully worthy of the precise kind of Just Man He became in Israel, and the furthest thing from a docile Royalist imaginable, if we can believe St Luke's report of the one occasion on which she spoke her mind in general.

    The popehood of Dave Bawden is rightly giggled over and poked fun at. But the mockery should have a good-natured and even a protective element. We should all feel and exhibit a fundamental sympathy for him and loyalty towards him as a fellow Catholic dealing with Apocalyptic horror issues. There is nothing funny about his religious distress and nothing Divine or Apostolic or One or Holy or Catholic about those who drove him to it, taking legal possession of St Peter's and Lourdes and Catholic U in the process.

    Even Traditionalists who are not sedevacantists have spoken of Rome as being run by antichrists. So we ought to nip at the heels of those who have broken down a bit as they sought salvation from antichrists?

    As for even coming close to linking up the Apocalypse to any other prophecies, that Divine Book contains dire warnings about adding to or subtracting from its own message. Divine Writ is Divine Writ, the Lord is the Lord, and the Master is the Master, and St Wolfgang having wild daydreams due to tainted weinerschnitzel is St Wolfgang having wild daydreams due to tainted weinerschnitzel.


    Offline dust-7

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 199
    • Reputation: +0/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Sedevacantists get a REAL bad name here...
    « Reply #7 on: July 24, 2007, 09:00:59 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Cletus

    Three or four posts on a message board do not an obsession make.


    Depends on what is expected by the phrase - agree to disagree.


    Quote from: Cletus

    I'll gladly plead guilty to having a little mission on the subject: to pop Great Monarch and Pope of the Future balloons wherever I can.


    And so then you have not - agreed to disagree, but have agreed only to disagree, and as often as you can.


    Quote from: Cletus

    The Conciliar Church is worse than heretical and apostate.


    You can't get worse than heretical and apostate. I have NO problem calling it the anti-Church, or supporting church of the anti-Christ. And while so many Saints and visionaries in the past spoke of a man, a specific man, who perhaps lived to 55 1/2 (666 months), a Jєωιѕн man, a man possessed and also possessing great knowledge and even some supernatural power, assisted in all by the media, by stage magic, by demonic suggestion to those who follow him and promote him, and so on, the idea that an abomination of desolation sits in the Temple could easily apply to what we see in the new Temple. That new Temple is The Church. What we see is abomination. And if 666 is the number of man, and also of a man, than more generically this 'goddess within' nonsense of pagan side of Roman Protestantism IS man having entered the Temple as a substitute for the adoration of God. And we know that Revolution has also been destroying the planet for centuries. Only recently, with modernism, did it damage the Church, too, which stood against the ways of the world. Now Catholics are disorganized, a remnant, and don't always trust each other. Back at the cliffs, in the catacombs and private homes. But there still remains, The Church, Militant, broken, not defeated. Essentially, just homeless, and leaderless. And we want back what belongs to Catholics. And that means the Vatican.


    Quote from: Cletus

    I see nothing in so-called Catholic prophesy that takes that into account.


    The fallen away, apostate church is spoken of in the Apocalypse of St. John. That's why I say that all these others do not contradict Scriptures. The visionaries provide some details, even if in metaphor or symbolism as just in canonical Scriptures. Unlike the Word of God, such visions do not have to be believed. But they don't contradict Scriptures.


    Quote from: Cletus

    to think that there could ever be a Great Monarch or a Great Pope of the Future is already nutty in itself.


    Again, and though you constantly repeat yourself, I won't repeat myself. But you can go back and read the example from a Mel Gibson film that I used. And I think that does accurately reflect the stereotype the world has of the military capability of France in the 21st century. So, it does seem nutty. But I also mentioned, stranger things have happened. When is the last time that you saw God in the Flesh preaching on a hillside? When was the last time you saw a man raised from the dead, named Lazarus? And so on. And there are many miracles attributed to the Saints, as well. We also read in The Acts.

    Quote from: Cletus

    And his checks never bounced, in which he could be a lesson to a few other Remnants I know


    You mean the magazine, The Remnant? That's a problem you have with them, then. To expand that to a type is where stereotyping can go wrong.

    Quote from: Cletus

    I have never thought about the French being cowards or inept at warfare. I don't think that it's true.


    It's a stereotype many share. They seem to have difficulty, at any rate.


    Quote from: Cletus

    I don't want a pope.


    There must be a temporal head of The Church. God first said to St. Peter, you are the rock, and upon you will I build. The next actual Pope will be a successor of St. Peter, faithful as St. Peter, and head of them all as St. Peter. He would be elected by those bishops lawfully ordained, and faithful, Catholic bishops and not Roman Protestant. It might even be other than ironic if you count up the number of bishops at the next council. How many were there for the first, at Jerusalem?


    Quote from: Cletus

    writings I have the right to speak the truth on the matter in my own way, even though some may take offense.


    That's fine, at least with me. But don't say you agree to disagree. You simply will try to make you point that prophecy is not to be considered by Catholics, at all, ever, that it perhaps is a sort of sin as you see it - never mind that all these visionaries were canonized Saints or faithful religious or lay Catholics, themselves.

    Maybe for that reason, people might take offense to you dismissing all of them with the wave of your hand? See below.


    Quote from: Cletus

    I like those writings because they are so hilarious.


    And you laugh at them, too.


    Quote from: Cletus

    Catholic Prophesy is good for pious recreation, maybe, but we should be resolved to be basically serious about all this


    Because, of course - they were not. Emmerich was frivilous perhaps? I'm asking here. Pius IX? He had nothing better to do? Pope St. Pius X? Louis de Montfort? I could go on.

    Important to them - important to Catholics.


    Quote from: Cletus

    at least some people from ruining the Christmas of others, especially their kids, by giving them Benedict XVI's bad book about Jesus.


    At least he's open about it, and put it in print. I thought maybe I'd catch some further insight to this guy by getting his Stations of the Cross book. But that was pretty much Catholic. Apparently, though, he performed one VERY different, in person. Clever of him. Leave no written evidence.


    Quote from: Cletus

    As for the New Pentecost as a punishment on the lowly for making the poor, poor mighty on their thrones so bad, I cite against all cold comforters the entire Book of Job and the way in which the Master set the judgmental disciples straight when they asked who had sinned, the man born blind or his parents, that he should be born blind. Just put "born to see the Vatican II church" instead of "born blind" and the a new relevance of that Gospel is clearly revealed.


    If that's your way of suggesting that the 'spirit of Vatican II' was partly a punishment on The Church for its laxity and the desire of so many to 'be as God', I would agree.


    Quote from: Cletus

    Even Traditionalists who are not sedevacantists have spoken of Rome as being run by antichrists.


    And they 'resist to the face', the Pope that is; a Pope who is wrong about Catholic teaching, much of the time. Shouldn't that suggest something to them?

    Quote from: Cletus

    As for even coming close to linking up the Apocalypse to any other prophecies, that Divine Book contains dire warnings about adding to or subtracting from its own message.


    They don't add. They speak of the same thing. And so they don't contradict. They speak of the same thing. The further details need not be believed. One need not believe in Fatima or Lourdes. But Catholics do.



    Offline Cletus

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 603
    • Reputation: +20/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Sedevacantists get a REAL bad name here...
    « Reply #8 on: July 24, 2007, 09:33:56 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I'll stick to one point for now.

    This is a thread about David Bawden's wacky antipopehood. You went out of your way to throw me into the mix on the basis of one thing of many that Bawden said. I had agreed to give the subject of uninspired prophesy a rest in the other thread. That is not a vow of perpetual silence on the subject and any fair-minded internet message board user knows that that goes without saying. Saying "let's agree to disagree" is merely a way of giving a subject a rest in the context of one thread and giving the opposition the last word if they want it.

    I think that this is what happens when people have their heads in the clouds of redemptive fantasy and don't deign to think hard and a lot about their real duty to deal justly with their real neighbors in the real world.

    What would the Great Monarch say about such behavior? Public misrepresentation and all? He might be the one to pass a law against it. At any rate, he would be more of a moralist than the Great Pumpkin. So let's keep our noses clean. Just in case.

    There is nothing contradictory or inconsistent with my agreeing to disagree there and saying what I have said here. You brought up the fascinating subject of me here. I'm something of an expert on that subject and don't mind setting people straight about it.

    Offline dust-7

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 199
    • Reputation: +0/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Sedevacantists get a REAL bad name here...
    « Reply #9 on: July 24, 2007, 10:48:15 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Cletus
    I had agreed to give the subject of uninspired prophesy a rest in the other thread.


    I can't imagine what you mean by inspired or uninspired, because you said you dismissed it all, as I said with the wave of your hand. Pope St. Pius X, Anne Emmerich, or some guy with a tin helmet - all the same to you. Yes?

    Now you throw in this word - inspired. Well, if that's backtracking, if Taigi might be someone to read, or Pius IX, Louis de Montfort, and so on . . then all to the good.

    Is that what you believe - now?


    Quote from: Cletus

    Saying "let's agree to disagree" is merely a way of giving a subject a rest in the context of one thread


    Then one says, rather, that they would not wish to comment further, in the one particular thread - not generally that they would agree to disagree.


    Quote from: Cletus

    and giving the opposition the last word if they want it.


    Do you see me as your - opposition?


    Offline Cletus

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 603
    • Reputation: +20/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Sedevacantists get a REAL bad name here...
    « Reply #10 on: July 24, 2007, 11:53:32 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I just checked. You were the one who introduced the formula "agree to disagree." I MEANT to say that I agreed that we should just agree to disagree, but I WROTE that I agreed that we must disagree. Must have been a Freudian slip. Or a gut instinct Catholic prophesy.

    Saying in one thread "let's agree to disagree" is not taking a solemn vow never to bring up the disagreed-on subject ever again in this world. You're just being stubborn and silly on this point.

    And you have not addressed the point that you introduced me and my views on so-called prophesy into THIS thread. Gratuitously, I think. You actually thought that you would get away with that because of some kind of vow on my part never to disagree with you on the subject of so-called prophesy though the heavens fall? That's not reality.

    All prophesy outside Scripture is uninspired. You yourself have pointed out how baffling and apparently contradictory it is. It is wrong to posit what is baffling and apparently contradictory and certainly uninspired as in any way clarifying or amplifying what is Divine Truth.

    So-called Catholic prophecies bring in many elements that are not hinted at in the Scriptures. I object to books in which Divine Writ becomes merely Chapter One, with bon mots from Blessed Anna Maria Taigi and St Casper Bufalo and so forth to make for the subsequent chapters.

    It would be safest to distrust anyone who seems to us to be a Great Monarch. More likely, he would be a false christ. He would be an avaricious genocide such as Leopold of Belgium, who was so glowingly eulogized by the illustrious Cardinal Mercier for his imagined Catholic piety. Or he would be a crazy mixed-up kid like that King Sebastian of Portugal.

    The figment of the Great Monarch has no place in a Catholic mind as anything more than a fondly cherished personal hope. The enigmatic dude is not even on the level of Fatima or Lourdes as something that the Church has promoted. Fatima and Lourdes impose themselves through the signs they offer.

    There is in Catholic Spirituality a certain animus against interest in singularities such as uninspired prophesy, even if it is a question of Saints prophesying. The Saints usually expressed reserve and diffidence towards visions and prophecies and miracles. When I was a kid I used to think that they were just being spoilsports.

    And Benedict gets credit for being open about being Modernistically inclined on the subject of Jesus and the Gospels? We need to lay off the salvation fantasies and get real about real problems and real abominations and the ruin they cause in real souls. The author of JESUS OF NAZARETH is NOT open about the aid and comfort he affords Modernism in his book -he is devious- and he should get no credit in any case. And for Christmas all of us should buy a copy of his book and end its mischievous life in this world by throwing it on the Yule log.

    NOTE: I see you as my opposition on this board on the subject of so-called Catholic prophecy and in the area of internet etiquette. And I don't see the point of asking that question. I suspect that it's just a silly lawyer's trick, creating high drama and towering conflict out what is plain and  obvious and banal in a heated discussion. Yeah, you were the opposition and I let you have the last word in that other thread. And so what?


    Offline dust-7

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 199
    • Reputation: +0/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Sedevacantists get a REAL bad name here...
    « Reply #11 on: July 25, 2007, 02:50:06 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Cletus
    I just checked. You were the one who introduced the formula "agree to disagree." I MEANT to say that I agreed that we should just agree to disagree, but I WROTE that I agreed that we must disagree.


    Fair enough. This is something of an issue with you.

    Quote from: Cletus

    All prophesy outside Scripture is uninspired. You yourself have pointed out how baffling and apparently contradictory it is.


    Before the fact. It's true of inspired Scripture, too. I'll give you a case in point - please explain to me the personalities involved, and the approximate dates, of what is yet predicted in the Apocalypse, and elsewhere in Scriptures?

    So, yes, it's confusing before the fact. Prophecy tends to make sense in hindsight, which was the point made by the Evangelists to the Jєωs, a number of whom 'got it', and confessed God and His Church even as the Temple elders had literally conspired to kill the God of the Temple.


    Quote from: Cletus

    So-called Catholic prophecies bring in many elements that are not hinted at in the Scriptures. I object to books in which Divine Writ becomes merely Chapter One, with bon mots from Blessed Anna Maria Taigi


    And because they were fools, or it didn't matter to them - either? You mistrust them - am I right? At the very least, you mistrust all these great Catholics of the past:


    Quote from: Cletus

    It would be safest to distrust anyone who seems to us to be a Great Monarch.


    Because, a):

    Quote from: Cletus

    he would be a false christ.


    They say precisely no. And none suggest that. And b):

    Quote from: Cletus

    He would be an avaricious genocide


    Because he would defeat Islam - or because he would defeat Roman Protestantism?

    Then you have c):

    Quote from: Cletus

    Or he would be a crazy mixed-up kid


    Like all those who predicted this figure? I'm asking.

    Quote from: Cletus

    The figment of the Great Monarch has no place in a Catholic mind


    It's worth consideration because it was considered by great Catholic minds, by serious and faithful Catholics.

    Quote from: Cletus

    Fatima and Lourdes impose themselves through the signs they offer.


    I suppose so do the Saints and visionaries in the rest of their lives. Same difference. And Catholics all the same, and likely the sort of Catholics you or I only wish we could be, even if we never received a vision (and I certainly never have).

    Quote from: Cletus

    NOTE: I see you as my opposition on this board on the subject of so-called Catholic prophecy and in the area of internet etiquette.


    Well, internet etiquette, as well? Is it that I've disagreed with you, even as you've sworn to disagree with me?


    Quote from: Cletus

    Yeah, you were the opposition


    Well, as I've said, prophecies do speak of a time when Catholics would be disorganized, leaderless, and mistrustful of each other.

    I don't suppose that could ever or even come true, either 'out there', or here on this web board?

    Offline Cletus

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 603
    • Reputation: +20/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Sedevacantists get a REAL bad name here...
    « Reply #12 on: July 25, 2007, 02:13:00 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Dust, please go back to referring to me in the third person as "another." I won't be addressing you or answering your questions. You mentioned me in passing in a negative way in this thread and then characterized my normal self-defensive reaction as obsessive and a violation of my word and all the rest. I find your lawyer's tricks disgusting and ungodly. I don't think that there is any need to explain further. I stand on your record. Take a hike.

    +

    Not all Saints made prophecies. Not all Saints who made prophecies talked about the same things, such as the Great Monarch and the Great and Holy Pope of the Future. Not all those who prophesied were Saints. Some of these so-called prophets might have been Dark Ages village idiots.

    And it is not just a question of Saints and holy folks of yore sounding off about this and that in the future. It's a question of people NOW trying to apply those prophecies to current events. Or speculating on how they might soon be applied to imminent events. So it is not just a question of my mocking SOME OF the prophecies in Dupont and Culleton. I am above all finding fault with those who TODAY bring illusions such as the Great Monarch and the Holy Pope of the Future into serious religious discussions.

    I am finding fault with fixation on these nonsensical so-called prophesies for practical reasons that I have cited.  We have seen how at least one person who is into all this Great Monarch jazz has a shockingly complacent attitude towards what would destroy the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.

    It is not so much that I distrust prophesies. I ignore them, unless it is to do a scientific study of them or get a few chuckles out of them. What I distrust is present day incorporation of them into a kind of unapproved Messianic theology. I distrust those who are alive today who speak as though it is de fide that there will be a Great Monarch from France or Germany or Timbuktu who will bring us all into an orthodox Catholic Shangri-La.

    Here is a "prophesy" of a Saint in which I find nothing amusing: "I do not congratulate myself on having destroyed Modernism. It has gone underground and will emerge in some more virulent form in the future."

    The Book of the Apocalypse is mystery from start to finish. No one knows exactly what it means and no one ever will until AFTER the trumpet has sounded. If the Leopard bites us we might think that it was the Bear and vice versa. We are left with the general themes of the Devil's being more powerful at some times than at others and Christ's ultimate victory no matter what.

    So much for the Apocalypse. We need no Divine Prophesy and no Saints speaking their minds in riddles to tell us that things have gone rather to pot when Catholic children in Catholic schools are no longer taught that Jesus gave us Mary for our Mother on the Cross, but that we must be open and tolerant and respectful towards those whose abominable lifestyles have the backing of Contemporary Man.

    It is just silly to attempt to find further enlightenment about the meaning of such horror in what could only be obscure at best. There is no point in so doing except to hide from painful reality and attempt to make IT as obscure and tricky as so-called prophecy. But it isn't. The Conciliar Church is a sacrilegious farce and the soul-corrupting Kingdom of Hell on earth. That is the god's simple truth. We need no Fatima secrets or chauvinistically tinged prophesies from German or French saints and mystics to tell us so. The cat is out of the bag about the Beast's being out of the Abyss.

    So much for prophecy about the problem. Prophecy about the solution?

    "A tall man from the West confirmed in all the virtues and princely ways will rise up and put down the wicked man from the East whose mother was a Jєωess from the north and then the tall man from the West will lay down his sword at the feet of the greatest and holiest of all Roman Pontiffs, and the bells of the Roman churches will be rung by angels."

    See, it's a game ANY number can play.

    I once knew a prophesy-hound who figured, see, that Prince Charles of Britain would convert to the Faith, see. Witness his withering assaults on ungodly modern architecture, see. His efforts on behalf of indifferentism? Well, no one said that the Great Monarch has to have a perfect record. So not all disciples of Dupont and Culleton prophesy are that desperate? Maybe not. Then at least they should think of such examples and take warning.

    And by the way, there IS something worse than apostasy. Something far worse. Atheism and false Godless philosophy are worse. Modernism - the science of making apostasy piously Catholic- is worse.




    Offline dust-7

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 199
    • Reputation: +0/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Sedevacantists get a REAL bad name here...
    « Reply #13 on: July 25, 2007, 06:28:17 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Cletus

    your lawyer's tricks disgusting and ungodly. I don't think that there is any need to explain further.


    When you accuse a Catholic who is defending The Church of being "disgusting and ungodly", I think that some further explanation might be required.


    Quote from: Cletus

    Take a hike.


    Maybe that explains more than you intended.


    Quote from: Cletus

    Not all Saints made prophecies.


    Not all Saints were six feet tall, I would guess. It's even possible that none ever drove a hemi Cuda back and forth to work.

    All of that is possible.


    Quote from: Cletus

    Not all Saints who made prophecies talked about the same things, such as the Great Monarch and the Great and Holy Pope of the Future. Not all those who prophesied were Saints.


    You're stretching to make a point, to say the least.


    Quote from: Cletus

    So it is not just a question of my mocking SOME OF the prophecies in Dupont and Culleton. I am above all finding fault with those who TODAY bring illusions such as the Great Monarch and the Holy Pope of the Future into serious religious discussions.


    So you've said, and see above. You no doubt tell Pope St. Pius X to 'take a hike', and Anne Emmerich, Louis de Montfort, and any and all who would dare consider such things.


    Quote from: Cletus

    I am finding fault with fixation on these nonsensical so-called prophesies for practical reasons that I have cited.


    Practical, is it? That's a standard - practical? As in practical magic, or practical effects, or practically there? I would say that the great Catholics of the past whom you hold in disdain for even having considered such things, for even having dared to their report visions or dreams, were holy. Now, whether or not you consider holiness to be, practical, and you would imply then, virtuous, is up to you.


    Quote from: Cletus

    We have seen how at least one person who is into all this Great Monarch jazz has a shockingly complacent attitude towards what would destroy the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.


    Maybe I've simply been making the wrong assumption. Are you Protestant?


    Quote from: Cletus

    The Book of the Apocalypse is mystery from start to finish. No one knows exactly what it means and no one ever will until AFTER the trumpet has sounded.


    I think I said that, myself, if you'd been reading. Yet it's - in the Bible - as the Protestant might say.


    Quote from: Cletus

    So much for the Apocalypse. We need no Divine Prophesy and no Saints speaking their minds in riddles to tell us that things have gone rather to pot when Catholic children in Catholic schools are no longer taught


    But they are. Catholic children, being raised as Catholics by their parents, attending Catholic schools, are being taught Catholicism - and particularly in these times. Again, you can't bring yourself to see that an apostate church is not that which went before. It's not the same thing, and is even the opposite, and the enemy of that which it usurped. You might as well call the Methodist school a Catholic school. Because the diocesan schools do not teach Catholicism. Catholics schools, do. There may not be many. But there are some.


    Quote from: Cletus

    The Conciliar Church is a sacrilegious farce and the soul-corrupting Kingdom of Hell on earth.


    I'd agree with you, there. And I'd agree that the matter is that important, and that the apostacy and heresy is that complete. What you describe, is not Catholicism, and not The Church. But I would also say to you, that something so unheard of in the history of The Church, forcing The Church out of its home, to a remnant, to the cliff, to the catacombs, disorganized, and mistrustful of each other, does not go unmentioned either in the prophecies and visions which you loathe, nor in the Apocalypse of St. John for which you have no heart, nor in the rest of Scriptures speaking of these times.


    Quote from: Cletus

    We need no Fatima secrets or chauvinistically tinged prophesies from German or French saints and mystics to tell us so.


    So they mention this Monarch, and France, only because they were French?


    Quote from: Cletus

    So much for prophecy about the problem. Prophecy about the solution?


    This Monarch you seem to hate is that solution, in part. So is the next Pope. Ultimately, the solution is Our Lord coming in Glory, no longer the Suffering Servant as He came from the womb of Our Blessed Mother.


    Quote from: Cletus

    And by the way, there IS something worse than apostasy. Something far worse. Atheism and false Godless philosophy are worse. Modernism - the science of making apostasy piously Catholic- is worse.


    You can't make apostacy, Catholic. It simply - is not. It's something else, entirely.

    And one needs to see that.

    Offline gladius_veritatis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 8018
    • Reputation: +2452/-1105
    • Gender: Male
    Sedevacantists get a REAL bad name here...
    « Reply #14 on: July 25, 2007, 08:29:04 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Matthew,

    As far as I can tell, he is not even a priest, let alone a bishop - and therefore cannot be Sovereign Pontiff.  His Q&A page briefly mentions the question of election, but I did not read anything about Holy Orders.  Did you?
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."