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Author Topic: Sedevacantist Ecclesiology and Protestant Ecclesiology are IDENTICAL  (Read 11380 times)

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Novus Ordo conservatives, like Mr. Salza here, must admit that either SVists are part of the Church as defined by V2 or deny the teaching of V2 and say they are not.

First, I am not Mr. Salza.  Second, please quote the teaching of Vatican II that you believe "defined" that Sedevacantists are part of the Church.  

Offline Pax Vobis

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RT, the docuмents of V2 regularly contradict each other and also the doctrine of EENS.  If the below quotes apply to protestants, they also apply to SVs.  Hence, both can be saved, which is contrary to Pius XII, and which you, as part of the V2 church, must believe and put into practice.  Therefore, your condemnations of SVs is contrary to V2.  Here are just a few quotes:

Decree on Ecuмenism: Unitatis Redintegratio

"The children who are born into these Communities, and who grow up believing in Christ, cannot be accused of the sin involved in the separation, and the Catholic Church embraces upon them as brothers, with respect and affection. For men who believe in Christ and have been truly baptized are in communion with the Catholic Church even though this communion is imperfect. ...it remains true that all who have been justified by faith in Baptism are members of Christ's body, and have a right to be called Christian, and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church."
 
 "Moreover, some and even very many of the significant elements and endowments which together go to build up and give life to the Church itself, can exist outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church: the written word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, and visible elements too. All of these, which come from Christ and lead back to Christ, belong by right to the one Church of Christ."
 
 
"The brethren divided from us also use many liturgical actions of the Christian religion. These most certainly can truly engender a life of grace in ways that vary according to the condition of each Church or Community. These liturgical actions must be regarded as capable of giving access to the community of salvation."
 
 "It follows that the separated Churches and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church."
 


First, I am not Mr. Salza.  Second, please quote the teaching of Vatican II that you believe "defined" that Sedevacantists are part of the Church. 
First, I don't know,  you sure hold to the same position as him and believe SVists aren't Catholics. Maybe you're Mr. Siscoe... :clown:

Second, see Pax's response above.

Here's what Vatican II teaches:


Sedevacantists know the Catholic Church was founded by Christ, yet they refuse to enter it.  Why?  Because they they think they already belong to it, since 1) they define he Church as "the baptized who profess the true faith" and 2) they (mistakenly) believe they meet both those condition.

Quote the teaching of Vatican II you are referring to and let's see what it says.



According to Tradition, the Church is a visible society with four marks united under a single hierarchy, not a body of individuals who have been baptized and profess the true faith, regardless of which sect they belong to.  It is not I, but you who has departed - and departed VERY FAR - from Tradition.
I am not a Sede.

but they aren’t refusing to enter in it. They do in fact believe they are in it.  In one sense it’s similar to a lot of Protestants or the Eastern Orthodox, except unlike these the sede denies no dogmas.  Thus not heretics.  At most you could get them with pure schism, but presumably they’d only be culpable for this based on the line you cited in V2 if they knew sedevacantism wasn’t the church but didn’t leave anyway 

I am not a Sede.

but they aren’t refusing to enter in it. They do in fact believe they are in it.  In one sense it’s similar to a lot of Protestants or the Eastern Orthodox, except unlike these the sede denies no dogmas.  Thus not heretics.  At most you could get them with pure schism, but presumably they’d only be culpable for this based on the line you cited in V2 if they knew sedevacantism wasn’t the church but didn’t leave anyway
Exactly. We are sedes because we do not believe that abomination preaching heresy could ever possibly be the Catholic Church

If you were able to convince a sede without a doubt that Francis-Bergoglio is the Supreme Pontiff of the Catholic Church, and they still remained outside of it, THEN you would have a case for schism. But, this hasn't been proven, therefore accusing them of schism is erroneous and stating they are not Catholic and outside of the Catholic Church is a damnable lie.