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Author Topic: Sedevacantist Ecclesiology and Protestant Ecclesiology are IDENTICAL  (Read 3981 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Sedevacantist Ecclesiology and Protestant Ecclesiology are IDENTICAL
« Reply #30 on: May 20, 2022, 08:08:46 AM »
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  • Considering Scripture does not use the term "Pope" anywhere, you'd be hard-pressed to find what you're looking for.


    Ah, no. Where is the concept in Scripture? Is it there? 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Sedevacantist Ecclesiology and Protestant Ecclesiology are IDENTICAL
    « Reply #31 on: May 20, 2022, 08:17:40 AM »
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  • Ah, no. Where is the concept in Scripture? Is it there?
    Considering you're attempting to use subterfuge to box me into your conclusion, how about you tell me?
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Sedevacantist Ecclesiology and Protestant Ecclesiology are IDENTICAL
    « Reply #32 on: May 20, 2022, 08:20:43 AM »
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  • Considering you're attempting to use subterfuge to box me into your conclusion, how about you tell me?

    Actually I'm not trying to do anything. You likely won't believe me, but I simply asked a question. 

    As I think you can see, I'm asserting the absence of the concept. I don't have to show what I say is not there. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Sedevacantist Ecclesiology and Protestant Ecclesiology are IDENTICAL
    « Reply #33 on: May 20, 2022, 08:26:31 AM »
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  • Also, the term "sedeism" comes across as retarded. What is it even supposed to mean? Seatism? See-ism? Chair-ism? What does it even imply? One who believes in the Holy See? The Chair? Does it mean sedeplenism or sedevacantism or sedeimpoundism?
    Normally sedeism is short for sedevacantism, but since you mention it I guess one could also say it often means sedewhateverism, since all of the various ideas having to do with the status of popes are at the very least, unnecessary in order to keep the faith.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Sedevacantist Ecclesiology and Protestant Ecclesiology are IDENTICAL
    « Reply #34 on: May 20, 2022, 08:35:03 AM »
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  •  Where in Scripture does it say that our popes and bishops cannot teach error, error that might even "make void the commandment of God"?



    Quote
    31] And the Lord said: Simon, Simon, behold Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: [32] But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and thou, being once converted, confirm thy brethren. (Luke 22:31-32)



    Obviously the prayer of Christ is efficacious and guaranteed to be answered in the way it is asked, unlike our prayers. And this applies not just to Peter, but to all his successors, since this is for the benefit of the office that Peter holds (or will soon hold), not for Peter personally as a man.


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Sedevacantist Ecclesiology and Protestant Ecclesiology are IDENTICAL
    « Reply #35 on: May 20, 2022, 08:52:48 AM »
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  • Obviously the prayer of Christ is efficacious and guaranteed to be answered in the way it is asked, unlike our prayers. And this applies not just to Peter, but to all his successors, since this is for the benefit of the office that Peter holds (or will soon hold), not for Peter personally as a man.
    Don't forget that it was almost immediately after that, St. Peter denied Him 3 times. Luke 22:57-60

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Sedevacantist Ecclesiology and Protestant Ecclesiology are IDENTICAL
    « Reply #36 on: May 20, 2022, 08:59:33 AM »
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  • So you've double-downed despite Matthew's warning in the "And Yet Another Novus Ordo Sacrilege" thread.

    Subjective enough for you ByzCat?
    Yeah.  You were straight up right here and I was wrong.  I apologize

    I really don’t understand the irrational NO hatred for Sedes.  Like I get some very vocal ones are jerks online, but all of the priests seem like pretty good people.  I do find some of the petty squabbling petty.  But I’m still closer to a sede that thinks I or even Lefebvre is a heretic than I am some Protestant let alone someone who isn’t even Christian.

    like I DO understand why a conservative NO would think sspv and cmri aren’t Catholic Churches but to subjectively say the people who go there are certainly damned is insane for an NO

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Sedevacantist Ecclesiology and Protestant Ecclesiology are IDENTICAL
    « Reply #37 on: May 20, 2022, 09:06:42 AM »
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  • Don't forget that it was almost immediately after that, St. Peter denied Him 3 times. Luke 22:57-60

    St. Peter's denial of Christ wasn't a failure in his faith, though. He believed interiorly while denying outwardly. Arguably this would include professing the faith as well as believing it interiorly, but in any case, this applies to St. Peter as pope, though, and he wasn't pope yet when he denied Christ.


    Offline Emile

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    Re: Sedevacantist Ecclesiology and Protestant Ecclesiology are IDENTICAL
    « Reply #38 on: May 20, 2022, 09:07:51 AM »
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  •  
    Is it heresy to teach something which goes beyond the Word of God and in fact denies it?

    Jesus said of the Pharisees that they were legitimate rulers in Israel (the OT covenant people of God):


    And yet:


    The Catholic Church is the Israel of the New Covenant. The annotators of the original Douay Rheims reminds us that, under the New Covenant, the Catholic Church "answereth to the seat of Moses" (I'll track down the quote later) - i.e., the hierarchy of the RCC replaced the Pharisees as the legitimate authority.


    Question for all - DL, Lad, Roman Theo, anyone: Where in Scripture does it say that our popes and bishops cannot teach error, error that might even "make void the commandment of God"?

    I know the hierarchy (cf. the Pharisees) teaches it can't, and that it is "infallible" and "indefectible" under certain conditions, but where does Scripture teach it?

    Interesting discussion.

    Thank you,

    DR
    Catholicism 101: Scripture:

    Protestant: The Bible is our sole guide!!!!
    Catholic: Umm, who decided what books would constitute scripture?
    Answer: The Church.

    To answer your question directly. A verse that comes to mind is Luke 10:16

    "He that heareth you, heareth me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me; and he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me."
    [Luke 10:16]
    Patience is a conquering virtue. The learned say that, if it not desert you, It vanquishes what force can never reach; Why answer back at every angry speech? No, learn forbearance or, I'll tell you what, You will be taught it, whether you will or not.
    -Geoffrey Chaucer

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sedevacantist Ecclesiology and Protestant Ecclesiology are IDENTICAL
    « Reply #39 on: May 20, 2022, 09:14:06 AM »
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  • To answer your question directly. A verse that comes to mind is Luke 10:16

    "He that heareth you, heareth me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me; and he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me."
    [Luke 10:16]

    That's a good quote.  There's hardly a Traditional Catholic who doesn't "despise" Jorge Bergoglio (what he teaches and stands for anyway).  So should really hope that Bergoglio is not Peter.

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Sedevacantist Ecclesiology and Protestant Ecclesiology are IDENTICAL
    « Reply #40 on: May 20, 2022, 09:21:34 AM »
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  • Don't forget that it was almost immediately after that, St. Peter denied Him 3 times. Luke 22:57-60
    He was not yet the Pope at that time. He wasn't Pope until after the Resurrection when Christ undoes his threefold denial:

    Quote
    When therefore they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me more than these? He saith to him: Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him: Feed my lambs. 16 He saith to him again: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? He saith to him: yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him: Feed my lambs. 17 He said to him the third time: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he had said to him the third time: Lovest thou me? And he said to him: Lord, thou knowest all things: thou knowest that I love thee. He said to him: Feed my sheep. -John 21:15-17

    Edit: I missed this, but 100% agreed
    St. Peter's denial of Christ wasn't a failure in his faith, though. He believed interiorly while denying outwardly. Arguably this would include professing the faith as well as believing it interiorly, but in any case, this applies to St. Peter as pope, though, and he wasn't pope yet when he denied Christ.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Sedevacantist Ecclesiology and Protestant Ecclesiology are IDENTICAL
    « Reply #41 on: May 20, 2022, 09:31:41 AM »
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  • St. Peter's denial of Christ wasn't a failure in his faith, though. He believed interiorly while denying outwardly. Arguably this would include professing the faith as well as believing it interiorly, but in any case, this applies to St. Peter as pope, though, and he wasn't pope yet when he denied Christ.
    Understood. Certainly yes, it does apply to the successors of St. Peter, per V1 when he speaks ex cathedra.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Sedevacantist Ecclesiology and Protestant Ecclesiology are IDENTICAL
    « Reply #42 on: May 20, 2022, 10:49:08 AM »
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  • To answer your question directly. A verse that comes to mind is Luke 10:16

    "He that heareth you, heareth me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me; and he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me."
    [Luke 10:16]

    Sure, the pope and the bishops have and are legitimate authority, and are to be treated as legitimate authority. That is all that says. And I say the same thing. 

    I could refer you to numerous passages in the OT where the same or similar is said of the priests, the Levites, etc. - the successors to Moses's and Aaron's authority. In fact, I can recall a passage where God accuses them of idolatry and in the next breath proclaims, nonetheless, that they remain the legitimate ministers in his Church. 

    Having legitimate authority does not equal infallibility, nor indefectibility. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Sedevacantist Ecclesiology and Protestant Ecclesiology are IDENTICAL
    « Reply #43 on: May 20, 2022, 10:54:14 AM »
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  • Obviously the prayer of Christ is efficacious and guaranteed to be answered in the way it is asked, unlike our prayers. And this applies not just to Peter, but to all his successors, since this is for the benefit of the office that Peter holds (or will soon hold), not for Peter personally as a man.

    Yeti,

    Thank you. 

    It is not obvious from the verse that this applies beyond Peter. It requires an extraneous (to what the text says) reasoning and inference to get to Peter's successors, as evidenced by you saying it does "since this is for the benefit . . ." Nowhere is that indicated in the text. Our Lord said, prayed for "thee," i.e Peter. 

    And that's without even wandering into the hole of what "faith faileth not" means. 

    DR
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Emile

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    Re: Sedevacantist Ecclesiology and Protestant Ecclesiology are IDENTICAL
    « Reply #44 on: May 20, 2022, 11:27:56 AM »
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  • Sure, the pope and the bishops have and are legitimate authority, and are to be treated as legitimate authority. That is all that says. And I say the same thing.

    I could refer you to numerous passages in the OT where the same or similar is said of the priests, the Levites, etc. - the successors to Moses's and Aaron's authority. In fact, I can recall a passage where God accuses them of idolatry and in the next breath proclaims, nonetheless, that they remain the legitimate ministers in his Church.

    Having legitimate authority does not equal infallibility, nor indefectibility.


    You didn't bother to quote the first part:
    Quote
    Catholicism 101: Scripture:

    Protestant: The Bible is our sole guide!!!!
    Catholic: Umm, who decided what books would constitute scripture?
    Answer: The Church.
    God did NOT give us the Bible ALONE. As written, you seem to be setting up the Bible against The Church; they are NOT to be separated. His Church has clarified when His minister's teaching is infallible and when it is not. If and when the present disaster is over, She will have some more clarification to do.

    Patience is a conquering virtue. The learned say that, if it not desert you, It vanquishes what force can never reach; Why answer back at every angry speech? No, learn forbearance or, I'll tell you what, You will be taught it, whether you will or not.
    -Geoffrey Chaucer