Quote from: SJB

Quote from: Caminus

Ah, we can't avoid evil, or determine where catholic tradition is without making illicit judgments or rendering our opinions binding on others.  I'll be waiting for an "authority" on that one.

You can and must avoid heretics. See St. Paul on this one.

As far as I can tell, you shouldn't be avoiding other Catholics because of doctrinal matters less than heresy. You do not shun excommunicants unless they are excommunicated by name and "to be avoided".

Heresy is part of the equation here because certain notions are in fact proximate to heresy and lead to heresy, as well as other factors that have destroyed our supernatural religion.  Some certain doctrinal matters may not be heresy strictly speaking, but do have effects which destroy nonetheless and consequently should be avoided.  Add to this a certain materialism and worldiness that isn't limited to a certain person or group of people and we have a terrible problem.  As was said before, our material separation from the normal structure of the Church is accidental and beside our formal intention of adhering to tradition.  This is, I believe, the proper attitude to have.  

Materialism and worldliness have always been there. Heresy and error has always been there.

Material separation from the normal structure of the Church?

Here's a definition of the Church Militant:

"The assembly of men bound together by the profession of the Christian faith, and by the communion of the same Sacraments, under the government of their legitimate shepherds, and especially that of the one Vicar of Christ on earth, the Roman Pontiff."

(De Ecclesia militante [On the Church Militant], bk. 3, ch. 2, par. 9) (Pragae, 1721, II, p. 65a)

Do you see the problem, Caminus?

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Or unless it is clear they have incurred a sentence of excommunication (including latae sententiae with such notoriety that it is not concealed and cannot be excused in law.  (Pope Eugene IV, ex cathedra)

This is wrong, I believe. Excommunication deprives one of the spiritual goods of the Church...it does not necessarily cause a loss of membership in the Church.

Minor excommunication is what you are thinking of, not that which is called latae sententiae, that is excommunication promulgated by the law for the profession of heresy or any false religion.

Go to this thread about it where Caminus called me an idiot.

Quote from: SJB

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Or unless it is clear they have incurred a sentence of excommunication (including latae sententiae with such notoriety that it is not concealed and cannot be excused in law.  (Pope Eugene IV, ex cathedra)

This is wrong, I believe. Excommunication deprives one of the spiritual goods of the Church...it does not necessarily cause a loss of membership in the Church.

Minor excommunication is what you are thinking of, not that which is called latae sententiae, that is excommunication promulgated by the law for the profession of heresy or any false religion.

Go to this thread about it where Caminus called me an idiot.

There are many latae sententiae excommunications. Profession of heresy is only one of them.

Can you not see the difference first of all between the worldiness of today, that is consorting with neo-paganism and the worldiness of a bishop at another time in history?  The flavor is certainly of a different kind.  Can you not see the difference between a worldly bishop in itself, contained as it were to his own person, and the worldly and material interpretation and attitude given to the faith and religion itself?  And this, not by one or two, but by entire conferences of bishops who approach the Church, not as something supernatural, holy and set apart, but rather merely a political organization?  This one vice, this rapproachment with the world, is so abhorrent, so offensive, so devastating to the Church that it alone could account for the most of the damage done since Vatican II.  The recovery of the notion of sacredness and reverence and fear will go along way in "re-orienting" the strange policies of this pernicious council.

Quote from: Catholic Martyr

Quote from: SJB

Quote

Or unless it is clear they have incurred a sentence of excommunication (including latae sententiae with such notoriety that it is not concealed and cannot be excused in law.  (Pope Eugene IV, ex cathedra)

This is wrong, I believe. Excommunication deprives one of the spiritual goods of the Church...it does not necessarily cause a loss of membership in the Church.

Minor excommunication is what you are thinking of, not that which is called latae sententiae, that is excommunication promulgated by the law for the profession of heresy or any false religion.

Go to this thread about it where Caminus called me an idiot.

There are many latae sententiae excommunications. Profession of heresy is only one of them.

 :heretic:

If we can just assume various people are excommunicated, and treat them accordingly, what is the point of having Church authorities at all? We're all our own Vatican.

A common criticism of sedevacantism -- every man becomes his own pope. I don't see any problem with that criticism at the moment.

Quote from: SJB

Quote from: Catholic Martyr

Quote from: SJB

Quote

Or unless it is clear they have incurred a sentence of excommunication (including latae sententiae with such notoriety that it is not concealed and cannot be excused in law.  (Pope Eugene IV, ex cathedra)

This is wrong, I believe. Excommunication deprives one of the spiritual goods of the Church...it does not necessarily cause a loss of membership in the Church.

Minor excommunication is what you are thinking of, not that which is called latae sententiae, that is excommunication promulgated by the law for the profession of heresy or any false religion.

Go to this thread about it where Caminus called me an idiot.

There are many latae sententiae excommunications. Profession of heresy is only one of them.

 :heretic:

If we can just assume various people are excommunicated, and treat them accordingly, what is the point of having Church authorities at all? We're all our own Vatican.

A common criticism of sedevacantism -- every man becomes his own pope. I don't see any problem with that criticism at the moment.

I don't think you understand the context of this conversation.

If you go back and read it I think you'll see why I said what I said.

Quote from: SJB

Quote

The recovery of the notion of sacredness and reverence and fear will go along way in "re-orienting" the strange policies of this pernicious council.

This is strange in itself, Caminus. A pernicious council teaching strange doctrines or "policies" as you put it, needing to be "re-oriented'?

Is this Catholic?

No, but it is equally true that Catholics can do and say un-Catholic things whilst still remaining Catholics.  This is a hard truth.

It's an easy truth, Caminus. You just like to pretend that I don't understand this.

Now put these people in positions of authority and behold the kind of damage they can do.  If John Paul was a simple parish priest and attempted to conduct Assisi-like meetings, the evil would be restrained to his diocese or parish and in normal times he would have been censured.  But place him in the Papacy and look what happens.

Except the pope, who CONFIRMS his brethren in the FAITH...has the protection of the charism of INFALLIBILITY in Faith and Morals.

An individual Bishop does not have this special charism...and the Pope is the only one who can remove him from his position.