Author Topic: Sedevacantism vs. the Catholic Faith (Read 5849 times)

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #30 on:** October 07, 2009, 01:19:40 PM »

Quote from: Caminus

Furthmore, I have always admitted the possibility of holding a certain form of this opinion privately and merely as less probable.

St Robert Bellarmine seems to think that, given certain conditions, it is much more than "less probable."

Quote

The thing that I take issue with is what I refer to as "dogmatic sedevacantism."

So do the vast majority of SVs.

Caminus · « **Reply #31 on:** October 07, 2009, 01:34:15 PM »

Bellarmine is the wrong man to go to since he held that God wouldn't allow the theoretical possibility (the probable opinion he was addressing) to become a practical reality.

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #32 on:** October 07, 2009, 01:36:39 PM »

Nice attempt to turn the tables, but he did, all the same, write at length about how he saw it shaking out, IF God were to allow such.

SJB · « **Reply #33 on:** October 07, 2009, 01:43:47 PM »

Quote from: Caminus

Ah, we can't avoid evil, or determine where catholic tradition is without making illicit judgments or rendering our opinions binding on others. I'll be waiting for an "authority" on that one.

You can and must avoid heretics. See St. Paul on this one.

As far as I can tell, you shouldn't be avoiding other Catholics because of doctrinal matters less than heresy. You do not shun excommunicants unless they are excommunicated by name and "to be avoided".

CM · « **Reply #34 on:** October 07, 2009, 02:26:32 PM »

Quote from: Caminus

You have never addressed my observation that to unite under this opinion is an error as it is outside of the Catholic faith. Never has anyone addressed this problem.

It does not add to revelation. It is simply observing the situation and acting in accordance with revelation that causes people to unite as sedevacantists.

You are unwilling to acknowledge this.

Quote from: SJB

You can and must avoid heretics. See St. Paul on this one.

As far as I can tell, you shouldn't be avoiding other Catholics because of doctrinal matters less than heresy.

At which point they are not Catholics.

Quote from: SJB

You do not shun excommunicants unless they are excommunicated by name and "to be avoided".

Or unless it is clear they have incurred a sentence of excommunication (including [/i]latae sententiae[/i] with such notoriety that it is not concealed and cannot be excused in law. (Pope Eugene IV, ex cathedra)

Hence dogmatic sedevacantism.

SJB · « **Reply #35 on:** October 07, 2009, 02:51:43 PM »

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Or unless it is clear they have incurred a sentence of excommunication (including latae sententiae with such notoriety that it is not concealed and cannot be excused in law. (Pope Eugene IV, ex cathedra)

This is wrong, I believe. Excommunication deprives one of the spiritual goods of the Church...it does not necessarily cause a loss of membership in the Church.

CM · « **Reply #36 on:** October 07, 2009, 02:54:25 PM »

Excuse me, but I quote the same words that were ratified by Pope Eugene IV, and they are wrong? Get real.

Caminus · « **Reply #37 on:** October 07, 2009, 04:04:08 PM »

Quote from: gladius_veritatis

Quote from: Caminus
It's a general description since this is a crisis primarily of bishops in one way or another.

Which, of necessity, must have some kind of specific, practical application - or it is so much horse pucky.

SSPX

Caminus · « **Reply #38 on:** October 07, 2009, 04:08:51 PM »

Quote from: SJB

Quote from: Caminus
Ah, we can't avoid evil, or determine where catholic tradition is without making illicit judgments or rendering our opinions binding on others. I'll be waiting for an "authority" on that one.

You can and must avoid heretics. See St. Paul on this one.

As far as I can tell, you shouldn't be avoiding other Catholics because of doctrinal matters less than heresy. You do not shun excommunicants unless they are excommunicated by name and "to be avoided".

Heresy is part of the equation here because certain notions are in fact proximate to heresy and lead to heresy, as well as other factors that have destroyed our supernatural religion. Some certain doctrinal matters may not be heresy strictly speaking, but do have effects which destroy nonetheless and consequently should be avoided. Add to this a certain materialism and worldiness that isn't limited to a certain person or group of people and we have a terrible problem. As was said before, our material separation from the normal structure of the Church is accidental and beside our formal intention of adhering to tradition. This is, I believe, the proper attitude to have.

Caminus · « **Reply #39 on:** October 07, 2009, 04:10:45 PM »

Quote from: Catholic Martyr

Excuse me, but I quote the same words that were ratified by Pope Eugene IV, and they are wrong? Get real.

I have never seen anyone so affected by such a malignant spiritual pride.

CM · « **Reply #40 on:** October 07, 2009, 10:37:14 PM »

Caminus your meaningless barb might have some truth to it if I were quoting MY OWN words, but I quote, almost verbatim, a pope, and am told that my words are wrong. You think that it is pride to say "No, a pope said it so you have to obey,"?

GET REAL.

Caminus · « **Reply #41 on:** October 08, 2009, 01:33:10 AM »

Right, you're nothing more than the pure oracle of God. I forgot, sorry.

CM · « **Reply #42 on:** October 08, 2009, 02:05:11 AM »

So anybody who quotes a pope is claiming to be an oracle?

CM · « **Reply #43 on:** October 08, 2009, 02:11:20 AM »

If someone who claims to be Catholic said to me:

"I think that since God is everywhere, everything around us is God"

And I were to reply:

"Actually this is wrong, the substance of God and that of the universe are two different substances entirely, and what you believe is heresy"

Am I claiming to be an oracle?

CM · « **Reply #44 on:** October 08, 2009, 02:12:00 AM »

Or am I prideful for saying it?