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Author Topic: Sedevacantism question  (Read 3006 times)

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Offline GaryGooner

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Sedevacantism question
« on: February 09, 2022, 03:30:28 PM »
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  • I'm not a Sedevcantist, but i do see a strong argument for the position. One question that bugs me is, If the Vatican II Popes are invalid and there is no Cardinals to elect a future Pope, Who will Consecrate Russia to Our Lady's Immaculate Heart? Did she not say that this will be done?

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Sedevacantism question
    « Reply #1 on: February 09, 2022, 03:41:06 PM »
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  • That's the million-dollar question and why many of us who accept sedevacantism here don't accept a totalist position. For example, I accept SV but hold to the Cassiciacuм/Fr. Chazal position (material/formal distinction) on how to address the current hierarchy. Meaning, if Francis, who only holds the material office of the Pope, were to suddenly convert and renounce the Council and all his errors he would then receive the formal office of the Pope. Which solves the problem of the hierarchy and Cardinals. 

    Many who take a position where there are absolutely no valid Cardinals would either say that God will select a new Pope through Divine intervention, or that these are the last days and Antichrist is coming very soon.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]


    Offline Francis Xavier

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    Re: Sedevacantism question
    « Reply #2 on: February 09, 2022, 05:03:11 PM »
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  • Short answer: you don’t form theological position base on private revelation.

    Galatians 1:8 “But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema.”

    Beside, these clowns have no power to do anything. If they can consecrate Russia, they can likewise “canonize” Karol Wojtyla. Personally I’m inclined to the Dimond Brothers’ explanation, that Pope Pius XII has consecrated Russia. Mock me if you will, whether it’s a “great deception” or not, I would still be glad that that monster got away for some time. At least in the Western world and in Russia today, you can on theory practice Catholicism publicly, a thing the Soviet Jєωs forbade.

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Sedevacantism question
    « Reply #3 on: February 09, 2022, 05:11:39 PM »
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  • Short answer: you don’t form theological position base on private revelation.

    Galatians 1:8 “But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema.”

    Beside, these clowns have no power to do anything. If they can consecrate Russia, they can likewise “canonize” Karol Wojtyla. Personally I’m inclined to the Dimond Brothers’ explanation, that Pope Pius XII has consecrated Russia. Mock me if you will, whether it’s a “great deception” or not, I would still be glad that that monster got away for some time. At least in the Western world and in Russia today, you can on theory practice Catholicism publicly, a thing the Soviet Jєωs forbade.
    No mockery here. I believe that Pope Pius XII consecrated Russia in 1952 as well. But some are holding out until 2029, due to comparisons to the consecration of France to the Sacred Heart, which occurred at the last hour 100 years after Our Lord's request to St. Margaret Mary. I'm not convinced, as the "errors of Russia" have so obviously spread. And Pius XII doing the consecration in '52, when the clergy and hierarchy was already full of Communist wolves, fits the bill.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: Sedevacantism question
    « Reply #4 on: February 09, 2022, 05:34:12 PM »
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  • Personally I’m inclined to the Dimond Brothers’ explanation, that Pope Pius XII has consecrated Russia.

    Does the effect seem proportionate to the cause, presuming he did what was requested?  In other words, why has the world sunk immeasurably deeper into unfathomable wretchedness IF Our Lady's requirements were actually fulfilled?  Has Russia converted?  No.  Is the world any better? No, it is MUCH worse.  If the results are any indicator, then Her promise was basically meaningless -- which is inadmissible.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."


    Offline Bataar

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    Re: Sedevacantism question
    « Reply #5 on: February 09, 2022, 05:43:07 PM »
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  • The Sedeprivationism position seems to be the best solution. It basically states that the person occupying the role of Pope is indeed the valid head of the Vatican City state, but is not formally the Vicar of Christ. As head of that state, he has to perform the duties to maintain it such as appointing cardinals. All appointed cardinals are valid as the current "pope" has the authority to appoint them according to the laws of the state. Since the cardinals are valid, they then have the authority to elect the next head of the Vatican City state, whom, if validly elected and free from heresy would be a valid pope.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sedevacantism question
    « Reply #6 on: February 09, 2022, 05:45:01 PM »
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  • I'm not sure why this is an additional concern with SVism.  Eventually God will raise up another pope, somehow.

    But, yes, I find SPism to be the most convincing position ... not just because it solves problems, but it just makes sense in general and nicely handles the problems that R&R have with SVism and the problems that SVs have with R&Rism.  Chazlism is in the same category, and I had hoped it would be the beginning of bridging the gap between the different sides.  But, alas.  Old enmities die hard.

    Offline GaryGooner

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    Re: Sedevacantism question
    « Reply #7 on: February 09, 2022, 06:03:38 PM »
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  • If say the current popes and Cardinals' etc did convert, what would that mean for their orders? Are are all of their orders not invalid or at best doubtful, as most, if not all of them received their Holy orders after Vatican II?


    Offline GaryGooner

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    Re: Sedevacantism question
    « Reply #8 on: February 09, 2022, 06:05:38 PM »
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  • I often hear Bishop Sandborn talk of Novus Ordo Priests being no more priests than your Mail man.

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: Sedevacantism question
    « Reply #9 on: February 09, 2022, 06:13:50 PM »
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  • If say the current popes and Cardinals' etc did convert, what would that mean for their orders? Are are all of their orders not invalid or at best doubtful, as most, if not all of them received their Holy orders after Vatican II?

    As we are speaking of a Divinely-instituted and -protected society, that will all be taken care of in the process.  God is a God of peace and does not want us to be overly worried about things above our proverbial pay-grade.  He is our Father and is as much in control of everything during this dark time as He was in the 13th century.  Hold fast; worry not.  Godspeed
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Sedevacantism question
    « Reply #10 on: February 09, 2022, 06:26:31 PM »
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  • I often hear Bishop Sandborn talk of Novus Ordo Priests being no more priests than your Mail man.
    That's because he, like some, believe that Novus Ordo Priests are not at all Priests due to invalid Holy Orders since Paul VI changed the Rite. I err on the side of caution and say their orders are doubtful and to be avoided, with good reason, but I cannot say outright that they are invalid because I don't have that kind of spiritual insight.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]


    Offline OneShotPaddy

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    Re: Sedevacantism question
    « Reply #11 on: February 10, 2022, 07:20:32 AM »
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  • Just to give an alternative, "totalist" perspective (in brief):

    Cardinals are not necessary for an election.  This is because although it is part of the ecclesiastical law of the Church that cardinals have sole powers of election, this has been rendered impossible to follow because all of the validly appointed cardinals have died.  Thus, the power of election devolves to the wider Church.  This means a general council of bishops would suffice.  However, since the traditional clergy do not have jurisdiction in any real sense, they do not have the authority to elect a Pope.  This means there must be bishops who have ordinary jurisdiction who can have the potential to elect a Pope.  Contrary to the claims of some sedevacantists (and more anti-sedevacantists), we do not claim that there are no bishops with ordinary jurisdiction.  Instead, some believe that God supplies the jurisdiction to an antipope where there is invincible or common error for the good of the Church *to the extent necessary* e.g. to appoint true Catholics to an office (similar to the jurisdiction enjoyed by some invalidly appointed bishops during the GWS).  Thus, these bishops who enjoy ordinary jurisdiction must be present at any such election however it appears any known bishops of such stripe are unwilling to do so or are simply unknown to wider public (which I suspect is the case for various members of the Eastern clergy). 

    Thus, the potency for an election exists but is unlikely to occur through natural means however this is a shared problem for all shades of traditionalism and not unique to sedevacantism and as such it is irrelevant to speculate how likely or unlikely such an election could ever occur.  As for our part, all that we can do as laymen is pray for our clergy and pray for an end to this crisis.
    "All Christendom know your quarrel is good – to fight for your native birth-right and for the religion which your forefathers professed and maintained since Christianity came first to this land... Your word is Sancta Maria; and so in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, advance, and give not fire till you are within pike-length."

    - Eoghan Ruadh Ó Néill

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Sedevacantism question
    « Reply #12 on: February 10, 2022, 07:55:24 AM »
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  • ^good points. I don't mean with my first response to infer that a supernatural solution is off-the-books or anything, as given just how bad the world has gotten, inside and outside of the Church, supernatural intervention is starting to look like the most likely means to set things straight.

    "For I tell you that God is able of these stones to raise up children to Abraham."
    [Matthew 3:9]
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Sedevacantism question
    « Reply #13 on: February 10, 2022, 09:28:02 AM »
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  • Just to give an alternative, "totalist" perspective (in brief):

    Cardinals are not necessary for an election.  This is because although it is part of the ecclesiastical law of the Church that cardinals have sole powers of election, this has been rendered impossible to follow because all of the validly appointed cardinals have died.  Thus, the power of election devolves to the wider Church.  This means a general council of bishops would suffice.  However, since the traditional clergy do not have jurisdiction in any real sense, they do not have the authority to elect a Pope.  This means there must be bishops who have ordinary jurisdiction who can have the potential to elect a Pope.  Contrary to the claims of some sedevacantists (and more anti-sedevacantists), we do not claim that there are no bishops with ordinary jurisdiction.  Instead, some believe that God supplies the jurisdiction to an antipope where there is invincible or common error for the good of the Church *to the extent necessary* e.g. to appoint true Catholics to an office (similar to the jurisdiction enjoyed by some invalidly appointed bishops during the GWS).  Thus, these bishops who enjoy ordinary jurisdiction must be present at any such election however it appears any known bishops of such stripe are unwilling to do so or are simply unknown to wider public (which I suspect is the case for various members of the Eastern clergy).

    Thus, the potency for an election exists but is unlikely to occur through natural means however this is a shared problem for all shades of traditionalism and not unique to sedevacantism and as such it is irrelevant to speculate how likely or unlikely such an election could ever occur.  As for our part, all that we can do as laymen is pray for our clergy and pray for an end to this crisis.
    This is my position, too. 
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Sedevacantism question
    « Reply #14 on: February 10, 2022, 03:24:38 PM »
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  • Just to give an alternative, "totalist" perspective (in brief):

    Cardinals are not necessary for an election.  This is because although it is part of the ecclesiastical law of the Church that cardinals have sole powers of election, this has been rendered impossible to follow because all of the validly appointed cardinals have died.  Thus, the power of election devolves to the wider Church.  This means a general council of bishops would suffice.  However, since the traditional clergy do not have jurisdiction in any real sense, they do not have the authority to elect a Pope.  This means there must be bishops who have ordinary jurisdiction who can have the potential to elect a Pope.  Contrary to the claims of some sedevacantists (and more anti-sedevacantists), we do not claim that there are no bishops with ordinary jurisdiction.  Instead, some believe that God supplies the jurisdiction to an antipope where there is invincible or common error for the good of the Church *to the extent necessary* e.g. to appoint true Catholics to an office (similar to the jurisdiction enjoyed by some invalidly appointed bishops during the GWS).  Thus, these bishops who enjoy ordinary jurisdiction must be present at any such election however it appears any known bishops of such stripe are unwilling to do so or are simply unknown to wider public (which I suspect is the case for various members of the Eastern clergy).

    Thus, the potency for an election exists but is unlikely to occur through natural means however this is a shared problem for all shades of traditionalism and not unique to sedevacantism and as such it is irrelevant to speculate how likely or unlikely such an election could ever occur.  As for our part, all that we can do as laymen is pray for our clergy and pray for an end to this crisis.
    Ordinaries are not necessary for an election either.  Neither are auxiliary bishops.  The responsibility of electing the pope falls to the clergy of Rome.  The College of Cardinals are all clergy of Rome and they have been designated by canon law as the electors of the pope.  But before the 9th century popes were elected by all the clergy of Rome and a couple of them were designated by a living pope and at least one was simply acclaimed pope after a dove landed on his head.  So if there are no cardinals then the election would fall to the clergy of Rome.  If the clergy of Rome accept the results of a general council then I don't think there would be any problem with a general council electing the pope even if that council was composed of clergy with no ordinary jurisdiction.  Also, I don't think it would be a big issue if some of the clergy of Rome were not formally incardinated in the diocese of Rome.  As long as they have taken up permanent residence in Rome, and they are truly Catholic in the sense that they believe all that the Catholic Church teaches as divinely revealed and are at least willing to submit themselves to a Catholic pope.  I know most of us don't put limits on what God can do but we shouldn't be putting arbitrary, unreasonable, or uncalled for limits on what the Church can do either.  The members of the Catholic Church know the voice of their Shepherd and they will follow it.