Author Topic: Sedevacantism: perpetual succession visibility (Read 20945 times)

Cantarella · « **on:** November 27, 2014, 02:45:56 PM »

Most sedevacantists believe Pope Pius XII to be the last true Pope, therefore the "50 years", although 60 years + would be more accurate.

awkwardcustomer · « **Reply #1 on:** November 27, 2014, 03:19:02 PM »

Cantarella said,

Quote

The reason why Nado cannot give a real answer to the question is because with each passing year, the possibility of an interregnum lasting more than 50 years is an absurdity.

This is because a legitimate interregnum could only last until the bishops who can supply Jurisdiction die. This is because, the Church Magisterium must be visible and supplied jurisdiction (necessary for Apostolic Succession) comes from the authority which is wielded by the Pope, and held by the Church (Bishops) during interregnums, these Bishops must be visible. They cannot be invisible. That is heresy. "Supplied jurisdiction" cannot work if there is no visible, living, Magisterium to supply it.

If there is 100 year interregnum (to say a number) then the Catholic Church would cease to be Apostolic and Roman, when every bishop appointed by the last Pontiff dies and when every Roman cleric incardinated by the last Pontiff dies. But this is impossible according to Catholic Dogma defined in Vatican I, because the Petrine succession, which is inseparable from the Apostolic succession is promised to exist perpetually.

And no Nado, visibility is not only "in real men, who can trace their valid sacramental lineage and have the Faith". Otherwise the Eastern Orthodox could truly claim to be the Church of Christ.

According to sede pet theory the Church, which must have the full four marks, has ceased to exist. The marks, the visible magisterium, are inextricably linked to the Church, but what they propose is an invisible Church and that is heresy.

How about this? What we are witnessing isn't an interregnum. Instead it is the revolt that St Paul warns about in 2Thessalonians.

And how about this? The 'one who holds' who has to be 'taken out of the way', again referred to by St Paul, is the Pope. The Pope holds the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven. That's one sense of the word 'holds'. The Pope also 'holds', as in holding the fort or holding the line.

At any rate, Sedevacantism could explain 2Thessalonians 2:7. The one who 'holds' has been 'taken out of the way' ie the Pope.

No need to worry, then, about perpetual succession because it's all over anyway. We're at the end and this is what happens next, according to St Paul.

Quote

And then that wicked one shall be revealed whom the Lord Jesus shall kill with the spirit of his mouth; and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming....

Cantarella · « **Reply #2 on:** November 28, 2014, 12:12:29 PM »

Quote from: Nado

Quote from: Cantarella
Most sedevacantists believe Pope Pius XII to be the last true Pope, therefore the "50 years", although 60 years + would be more accurate.

Well, it's been 56 years since the death of Pius XII, so I don't even know where you got 60+.

If we were in 1978, would you have complained 20 years was too much?

Or is it really that the amount of years doesn't matter, but that you are basing your objection solely on the jurisdiction angle?

The most "accurate" date would be the last year that Pope Pius XII appointed the last Bishop but that is not what this is about so do not waste time using a straw man, evading the real issue.

Again, in the Catholic Church, the Magisterium must always exist. It is held by the Church (Bishops) during legitimate interregnums and these Bishops must be visible but no sede can respond who and where these Bishops are. Without these Bishops (or the Roman Clergy), there will be no possible way to elect a new Pope via an imperfect Council so sedes bite their own tail.

Sedes keep redefining the Church to fit their pet theory in which the hierarchy has ceased to exist. Again, the Church includes the Magisterium, sorry for the inconvenience.

Croix de Fer · « **Reply #3 on:** November 28, 2014, 12:27:56 PM »

Quote from: Cantarella

Again, in the Catholic Church, the Magisterium must always exist. It is held by the Church (Bishops) during legitimate interregnums and these Bishops must be visible but no sede can respond who and where these Bishops are. Without these Bishops (or the Roman Clergy), there will be no possible way to elect a new Pope via an imperfect Council so sedes bite their own tail.

But this Magisterium (of Newchurch) only exists materially. They're valid bishops, but since they're heretics and unfolding apostates, Catholics are obligated not to follow them. Christ always allows those in sin a way back to Life (Him), should they repent. The same goes for Newchurch. The episcopacy is materially in effect, which allows the eclipse of the true Faith / Church to be removed if this same Magisterium rescinds Vatican II and the novus ordo mass, and converts to the true Catholic Faith. However, we know Christ warned us that when He returns, will He find Faith? And Our Lady of La Salette told us Rome will lose the Faith. All of this can be postponed, indefinitely, if people, including Newchurch, convert to the Faith, but it's unlikelyly, due to the fallen nature of man and the human condition. Souls can still be saved through prayer, penance, charity and fasting, but at this point, it will be individual cases. The collective Newchurch, and humanity, is at a point of no return, in my humble opinion.

This is why sedeprivationism is the best explanation of, and response to, the Crisis in the Church. :cool:

Cantarella · « **Reply #4 on:** November 28, 2014, 12:50:42 PM »

Quote from: ascent

Quote from: Cantarella

Again, in the Catholic Church, the Magisterium must always exist. It is held by the Church (Bishops) during legitimate interregnums and these Bishops must be visible but no sede can respond who and where these Bishops are. Without these Bishops (or the Roman Clergy), there will be no possible way to elect a new Pope via an imperfect Council so sedes bite their own tail.

But this Magisterium (of Newchurch) only exists materially. They're valid bishops, but since they're heretics and unfolding apostates, Catholics are obligated not to follow them. Christ always allows those in sin a way back to Life (Him), should they repent. The same goes for Newchurch. The episcopacy is materially in effect, which allows the eclipse of the true Faith / Church to be removed if this same Magisterium rescinds Vatican II and the novus ordo mass, and converts to the true Catholic Faith. However, we know Christ warned us that when He returns, will He find Faith? And Our Lady of La Salette told us Rome will lose the Faith. All of this can be postponed, indefinitely, if people, including Newchurch, convert to the Faith, but it's unlikelyly, due to the fallen nature of man and the human condition. Souls can still be saved through prayer, penance, charity and fasting, but at this point, it will be individual cases. The collective Newchurch, and humanity, is at a point of no return, in my humble opinion.

This is why sedeprivationism is the best explanation of, and response to, the Crisis in the Church. :cool:

Well, Pope Leo XIII disagrees, "Christ instituted in the Church a living, authoritative and permanent Magisterium"

According to sede pet theory then the Church as it was founded has ceased to exist because the fact is all the Bishops went along with Vatican II, whether formally or materially, by Sede standards the Church then defected since all Bishops have committed Mass heresy, have apostate from the Faith, are no longer members of the Catholic Church and have excommunicated themselves in so facto. No sede knows who and where is the Bishop that did not.

There is no solution to sedevacantism. Fact remains that without a functioning hierarchy, the Church will never be able to choose a new Pope. There is little hope that we see a pair of angels placing the tiara on a new Pontiff although there are some souls here that believe so. Faith without reason leads to superstition.

There are some wounded souls out there that find comfort engaging in Apocalyptic rhetoric, but this does little good to us, who actually believe in the promises of Our Lord and the establishment of the Holy Catholic Church which will last for ever even in times of anti-Christ, and are actually fighting towards the restoration of Christendom.

LaramieHirsch · « **Reply #5 on:** November 28, 2014, 01:48:44 PM »

Quote from: Cantarella

Sedes keep redefining the Church to fit their pet theory in which the hierarchy has ceased to exist. Again, the Church includes the Magisterium, sorry for the inconvenience.

Seems so obvious

Croix de Fer · « **Reply #6 on:** November 28, 2014, 02:57:20 PM »

Quote from: Cantarella

Quote from: ascent
Quote from: Cantarella

Again, in the Catholic Church, the Magisterium must always exist. It is held by the Church (Bishops) during legitimate interregnums and these Bishops must be visible but no sede can respond who and where these Bishops are. Without these Bishops (or the Roman Clergy), there will be no possible way to elect a new Pope via an imperfect Council so sedes bite their own tail.

But this Magisterium (of Newchurch) only exists materially. They're valid bishops, but since they're heretics and unfolding apostates, Catholics are obligated not to follow them. Christ always allows those in sin a way back to Life (Him), should they repent. The same goes for Newchurch. The episcopacy is materially in effect, which allows the eclipse of the true Faith / Church to be removed if this same Magisterium rescinds Vatican II and the novus ordo mass, and converts to the true Catholic Faith. However, we know Christ warned us that when He returns, will He find Faith? And Our Lady of La Salette told us Rome will lose the Faith. All of this can be postponed, indefinitely, if people, including Newchurch, convert to the Faith, but it's unlikelyly, due to the fallen nature of man and the human condition. Souls can still be saved through prayer, penance, charity and fasting, but at this point, it will be individual cases. The collective Newchurch, and humanity, is at a point of no return, in my humble opinion.

This is why sedeprivationism is the best explanation of, and response to, the Crisis in the Church. :cool:

Well, Pope Leo XIII disagrees, "Christ instituted in the Church a living, authoritative and permanent Magisterium"

According to sede pet theory then the Church as it was founded has ceased to exist because the fact is all the Bishops went along with Vatican II, whether formally or materially, by Sede standards the Church then defected since all Bishops have committed Mass heresy, have apostate from the Faith, are no longer members of the Catholic Church and have excommunicated themselves in so facto. No sede knows who and where is the Bishop that did not.

There is no solution to sedevacantism. Fact remains that without a functioning hierarchy, the Church will never be able to choose a new Pope. There is little hope that we see a pair of angels placing the tiara on a new Pontiff although there are some souls here that believe so. Faith without reason leads to superstition.

There are some wounded souls out there that find comfort engaging in Apocalyptic rhetoric, but this does little good to us, who actually believe in the promises of Our Lord and the establishment of the Holy Catholic Church which will last for ever even in times of anti-Christ, and are actually fighting towards the restoration of Christendom.

Yeah, I'm not arguing in defense of sedevacantism in the strict sense. I've thought that you sound more like a sedeprivationist, too, including your last posts on this thread. You have stated on this forum that we Catholics are not to follow heresies and apostasy promulgated by the pope and magisterium (which has been a pathology since Vatican II), yet you recognize they are still valid bishops. Sounds like sedeprivationism to me. :smile: We know the pope and magisterium are only infallible when they adhere to the Deposit of Faith, otherwise they're not infallible, hence they're not fully bishops because they're steeped in heresy. We know the magisterium and pope cannot promulgate heresy and apostasy. It's impossible, for they're guided by the Holy Ghost, but the Newchurch bishops do such a thing, hence they're only material bishops with valid orders. Once they convert to the true Catholic Faith and rescind Vatican II Council, then their episcopacy will be made whole.

awkwardcustomer · « **Reply #7 on:** November 28, 2014, 04:59:19 PM »

Cantarella said,

Quote

There are some wounded souls out there that find comfort engaging in Apocalyptic rhetoric, but this does little good to us, who actually believe in the promises of Our Lord and the establishment of the Holy Catholic Church which will last for ever even in times of anti-Christ, and are actually fighting towards the restoration of Christendom.

Can you explain how and in what manner the Holy Catholic Church will last during the reign of the Antichrist? And what is the source for your claim?

Because the Church Fathers say that only a tiny remnant will survive this tribulation, the like of which the world has never seen, or will ever see. And they will survive by taking refuge in the mountains and the caves while the Church appears to have been completely destroyed, wiped off the face of the Earth.

Is it Church teaching that there will be a Pope during the reign of the Antichrist?

Cantarella · « **Reply #8 on:** November 28, 2014, 07:43:09 PM »

Quote from: awkwardcustomer

Cantarella said,
Quote

There are some wounded souls out there that find comfort engaging in Apocalyptic rhetoric, but this does little good to us, who actually believe in the promises of Our Lord and the establishment of the Holy Catholic Church which will last for ever even in times of anti-Christ, and are actually fighting towards the restoration of Christendom.

Can you explain how and in what manner the Holy Catholic Church will last during the reign of the Antichrist? And what is the source for your claim?

Because the Church Fathers say that only a tiny remnant will survive this tribulation, the like of which the world has never seen, or will ever see. And they will survive by taking refuge in the mountains and the caves while the Church appears to have been completely destroyed, wiped off the face of the Earth.

Is it Church teaching that there will be a Pope during the reign of the Antichrist?

Vatican I defined infallibly that Blessed Peter would have TRUE and perpetual papal successors to the end of times and was not just referring to the vague concept of the Papacy being endless as sedes mistakenly claim. We have this dogmatic assurance. Infallible doctrine overrules any fallible theological opinions, even from saints and doctors.

Perpetual, referring to the Pope and his successors, means endless but also means uninterrupted. Meaning there is no allowance for the theory of Pius XII being the last true Pope with a 50+year of interruption of antipopes. As said before, the loss of jurisdiction means the loss of Apostolicity, which is one of the marks of the True Church. Holy orders are simply not enough; Jurisdiction is needed as well. With the loss of Apostolicity the Church loses the other marks (unity, catholicity, holiness). This jurisdiction comes from the Pope. During a legitimate interregnum (which the longest have lasted about 2 1/2 years), ordinary jurisdiction continues through the Church (Bishops) Herself. Every generation has received the faith from a successor of St. Peter, without exception. The jurisdiction granted by Jesus Christ to Peter and the Apostles has been handed down by the successors of St. Peter in all generations. This is what Vatican I means when it says the Popes shall reign in perpetuity.

Sedevacantist priests and bishops (presuming their orders are valid) cannot be the Church because they have no valid Apostolic Succession. If the Church has no Apostolic Succession, the gates of hell would have prevailed against the Church, which runs contrary to the promises of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

Quote from: Vatican I Dogma

Therefore, if anyone says that it is not by the institution of Christ the lord himself (that is to say, by divine law) that blessed Peter should have perpetual successors in the primacy over the whole church; or that the Roman pontiff is not the successor of blessed Peter in this primacy: let him be anathema.

Quote

Perpetual Definition:
1. continuing forever : everlasting <perpetual motion>

b (1) : valid for all time <a perpetual right> (2) : holding (as an office) for life or for an unlimited time

2 : occurring continually : indefinitely long-continued

Cantarella · « **Reply #9 on:** November 28, 2014, 08:22:47 PM »

Here a reminder of Catechism 101 on how to recognize the True Church of Christ among the false ones. Please notice that if the Church loses even ONE of his marks, it means that it cannot be the Church that Jesus established until the end of time and promised that the gates of Hell will not prevail against Her.

From Baltimore:

Quote

Lesson 12: On the Attributes and Marks of the Church

Q. 517. What is an attribute?

A. An attribute is any characteristic or quality that a person or thing may be said to have. All perfections or imperfections are attributes

Q. 518. What is a mark?

A. A mark is a given and known sign by which a thing can be distinguished from all others of its kind. Thus a trademark is used to distinguish the article bearing it from all imitations of the same article.

Q. 519. How do we know that the Church must have the four marks and three attributes usually ascribed or given to it?

A. We know that the Church must have the four marks and three attributes usually ascribed or given to it from the words of Christ given in the Holy Scripture and in the teaching of the Church from its beginning.

Q. 520. Can the Church have the four marks without the three attributes?

A. The Church cannot have the four marks without the three attributes, because the three attributes necessarily come with the marks and without them the marks could not exist.

Q. 521. Why are both marks and attributes necessary in the Church?

A. Both marks and attributes are necessary in the Church, for the marks teach us its external or visible qualities, while the attributes teach us its internal or invisible qualities. It is easier to discover the marks than the attributes; for it is easier to see that the Church is one than that it is infallible.

Q. 522. Which are the attributes of the Church?

A. The attributes of the Church are three:

1.authority, infallibility, and indefectibility.

Q. 523. What is authority?

A. Authority is the power which one person has over another so as to be able to justly exact obedience. Rulers have authority over their subjects, parents over their children, and teachers over their scholars.

Q. 524. From whom must all persons derive whatever lawful authority they possess?

A. All persons must derive whatever lawful authority they possess from God Himself, from whom they receive it directly or indirectly. Therefore, to disobey our lawful superiors is to disobey God Himself, and hence such disobedience is always sinful.

Q. 525. What do you mean by the authority of the Church?

A. By the authority of the Church I mean the right and power which the Pope and the Bishops, as the successors of the Apostles, have to teach and to govern the faithful.

Q. 526. What do you mean by the infallibility of the Church?

A. By the infallibility of the Church I mean that the Church can not err when it teaches a doctrine of faith or morals.

Q. 527. What do we mean by a "doctrine of faith or morals"?

A. By a doctrine of faith or morals we mean the revealed teaching that refers to whatever we must believe and do in order to be saved.

Q. 528. How do you know that the Church can not err?

A. I know that the Church can not err because Christ promised that the Holy Ghost would remain with it forever and save it from error. If, therefore, the Church has erred, the Holy Ghost must have abandoned it and Christ has failed to keep His promise, which is a thing impossible.

Q. 529. Since the Church can not err, could it ever be reformed in its teaching of faith or morals?

A. Since the Church can not err, it could never be reformed in its teaching of faith or morals. Those who say the Church needed reformation in faith or morals accuse Our Lord of falsehood and deception.

Q. 530. When does the Church teach infallibly?

A. The Church teaches infallibly when it speaks through the Pope and Bishops united in general council, or through the Pope alone when he proclaims to all the faithful a doctrine of faith or morals.

Q. 531. What is necessary that the Pope may speak infallibly or ex-cathedra?

A. That the Pope may speak infallibly, or ex-cathedra:

1.(1) He must speak on a subject of faith or morals;

2.(2) He must speak as the Vicar of Christ and to the whole Church;

3.(3) He must indicate by certain words, such as, we define, we proclaim, etc., that he intends to speak infallibly.

Q. 532. Is the Pope infallible in everything he says and does?

A. The Pope is not infallible in everything he says and does, because the Holy Ghost was not promised to make him infallible in everything, but only in matters of faith and morals for the whole Church. Nevertheless, the Pope's opinion on any subject deserves our greatest respect on account of his learning, experience and dignity.

Q. 533. Can the Pope commit sin?

A. The Pope can commit sin and he must seek forgiveness in the Sacrament of Penance as others do. Infallibility does not prevent him from sinning, but from teaching falsehood when he speaks ex-cathedra.

And

Quote

152. Which is the one true Church established by Christ?

The one true Church established by Christ is the Catholic Church.

And other sheep I have that are not of this fold. Them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold and one shepherd. (John 10:16)

153. How do we know that the Catholic Church is the one true Church established by Christ?

We know that the Catholic Church is the one true Church established by Christ because it alone has the marks of the true Church.

Holy Father, keep in thy name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we also are. (John 17:11)

154. What do we mean by the marks of the Church?

By the marks of the Church we mean certain clear signs by which all men can recognize it as the true Church founded by Jesus Christ.

155. What are the chief marks of the Church?

The chief marks of the Church are four: It is one, holy, catholic or universal, and apostolic.

156. Why is the Catholic Church one?

The Catholic Church is one because all its members, according to the will of Christ, profess the same faith, have the same sacrifice and sacraments, and are united under one and the same visible head, the Pope.

Because the bread is one, we though many, are one body, all of us who partake of the one bread. (I Corinthians 10:17)

157. Why is the Catholic Church holy?

The Catholic Church is holy because it was founded by Jesus Christ, who is all-holy, and because it teaches, according to the will of Christ, holy doctrines, and provides the means of leading a holy life, thereby giving holy members to every age.

A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore, by their fruits you will know them. (Matthew 7:17-20)

158. Why is the Catholic Church catholic or universal?

The Catholic Church is catholic or universal because, destined to last for all time, it never fails to fulfill the divine commandment to teach all nations all the truths revealed by God.

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world, for a witness to all nations. (Matthew 24:14)

159. Why is the Catholic Church apostolic?

The Catholic Church is apostolic because it was founded by Christ on the apostles and, according to His divine will, has always been governed by their lawful successors.

And I say to thee, thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (Matthew 16:18)

160. How do we know that no other church but the Catholic Church is the true Church of Christ?

We know that no other church but the Catholic Church is the true Church of Christ because no other church has these four marks.

But according to the sede pet theory the Catholic Church, which must have ALL FOUR marks has ceased to exist, given that none of them can respond where is the Apostolic Succession and the visible Magisterium anymore but end up with a Calvinist style invisible Church that respond to no one but themselves.

2Vermont · « **Reply #10 on:** November 28, 2014, 09:32:09 PM »

The Vatican II Church has all four marks of the Catholic Church?

magdalena · « **Reply #11 on:** November 28, 2014, 09:37:24 PM »

Just for your, perhaps, interest, here is a list of the oldest Bishops and Cardinals still living with, of course, no voice. Quite a surprise to me.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_Catholic_bishops

Cantarella · « **Reply #12 on:** November 28, 2014, 10:51:05 PM »

Quote from: magdalena

Just for your, perhaps, interest, here is a list of the oldest Bishops and Cardinals still living with, of course, no voice. Quite a surprise to me.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_Catholic_bishops

Many thanks for this resource. Very interesting! However, it does not support the sedevacantist thesis mainly for two reasons:

First, the vast majority of these Bishops were consecrated after 1958 (death of Pope Pius XII, last true Pope for most sedes), meaning that these Bishops were actually consecrated by an anti-pope which would make the consecration invalid.

Second, according to sede theory, all these Bishops went along with Vatican II and therefore apostate from the Faith, whether formally or materially. No sede can name a valid Bishop who did not. What they propose is that all conciliar Bishops have committed mass heresy and excommunicated themselves in the process.

magdalena · « **Reply #13 on:** November 28, 2014, 11:03:32 PM »

Quote from: Cantarella

Quote from: magdalena
Just for your, perhaps, interest, here is a list of the oldest Bishops and Cardinals still living with, of course, no voice. Quite a surprise to me.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_Catholic_bishops

Many thanks for this resource. Very interesting! However, it does not support the sedevacantist thesis mainly for two reasons:

First, the vast majority of these Bishops were consecrated after 1958 (death of Pope Pius XII, last true Pope for most sedes), meaning that these Bishops were actually consecrated by an anti-pope which would make the consecration invalid.

Second, according to sede theory, all these Bishops went along with Vatican II and therefore apostate from the Faith, whether formally or materially. No sede can name a valid Bishop who did not. What they propose is that all conciliar Bishops have committed mass heresy and excommunicated themselves in the process.

Good points. I was not purposing anything, however. Just found it interesting.

Adolphus · « **Reply #14 on:** November 28, 2014, 11:53:33 PM »

Quote from: Cantarella

First, the vast majority of these Bishops were consecrated after 1958 (death of Pope Pius XII, last true Pope for most sede[vacantist]s), meaning that these Bishops were actually consecrated by an anti-pope which would make the consecration invalid.

1) Most of the bishops are consecrated by other bishops and only few of them are by the Pope.

2) Since not all of those who believe the See is empty or usurped necessarily think the last valid Pope was Pius XII, you should not generalize.