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Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: andysloan on March 28, 2014, 10:13:13 PM
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To the sedevacantist brothers and sisters.
God, of Whom it is written:
Wisdom 19:20
"For in all things thou didst magnify thy people, O Lord, and didst honour them, and didst not despise them, but didst assist them at all times, and in every place."
...has given to His Church a vast number of revelations and prophecies.
I make no claim to be a high authority, yet I have studied a great number of these and I have never seen any prophecy advising of a period of invalid popes.
The only prophecy touching this is from the great St Francis of Assisi, who speaks of one invalidly elected pope (who in all likelihood will be the false prophet of Apocalypse )
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2748949/posts
God has helped his people all the way through the history of the church and surely it is reasonable to suppose that such an extraordinary situation would have been forewarned. Thus can anyone find such a revelation?
Psalms 59:6
"Thou hast given a warning to them that fear thee: that they may flee from before the bow: That thy beloved may be delivered."
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I'm not a sedevacantist. I don't know what to believe as far as the post-conciliar popes. That being said, if John XXIII was an anti-pope and Gregory XVII was the true pope, then that would take him right up until 1989. No other pope would have been able to be elected in the interim, so that would make Paul VI, JPI, and JPII, antipopes. Given that scenario, it could be the case that Benedict XVI was a true pope. I find it doubtful that Francis is a true pope, given his apparently heretical statements. I think that scenario could easily fit into St. Francis' prophecy. Not sure how well it would fit into St. Malachy's prophecy.
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I'm still puzzled how not all true catholics have taken the sedevacanist position
was this prophecy a fraud yes or no?
Our Lady of La Salette, Sept. 19, 1846:
“Rome will lose the
Faith and become the seat of
the Anti-Christ... the Church
will be in eclipse
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Was there a prophecy for Arianism?
Mohammedanism?
Manicheanism?
Jansenism?
The Great Western "Schism"?
Lutheranism?
Calvinism?
Gallicism?
Monophysitism?
Monothelitism?
I'm not sure what your point is, Andy.
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I'm still puzzled how not all true catholics have taken the sedevacanist position
was this prophecy a fraud yes or no?
Our Lady of La Salette, Sept. 19, 1846:
“Rome will lose the
Faith and become the seat of
the Anti-Christ... the Church
will be in eclipse
Well, I guess the seat of the Anti-Christ isn't vacant.
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The only prophecy touching this is from the great St Francis of Assisi, who speaks of one invalidly elected pope ,,.
So it's NOT found in prophecy?
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To Ladislaus:
The prophecy from St Francis refers to ONE person; not a string of anti-popes.
God bless!
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To Mithrandylan
We know from Scripture of heresies and heretical sects:
2 Peter 2:1
"But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there shall be among you lying teachers, who shall bring in sects of perdition, and deny the Lord who bought them: bringing upon themselves swift destruction."
Romans 16:17
Now I beseech you, brethren, to mark them who make dissensions and offences contrary to the doctrine which you have learned, and avoid them.
But it seems an aberration that a string of anti-popes finds no mention in Scripture or any revelations/prophecies.
In fact, some of the heresies you listed are referenced in the Mystical City of God:
"Ah, woe is me (satan), what torment does this mistake cause me! When I tempted Him in the desert, the only result was to afford him a chance to leave the example of this victory, by following which men can overcome so much the more easily. My persecutions only brought out more clearly his doctrine of humility and patience. In persuading Judas to betray Him, and the Jєωs subject Him to the deadly torture of the Cross, I merely hastened my ruin and the salvation of men, while the doctrine I sought to blot out was only the more firmly implanted. How could One who is God humiliate Himself to such an extent? How could He bear so much from men who are evil? How could I myself have been led to assist so much in making this salvation so copious and wonderful? O how godlike is the power of that Man which could torment and weaken me so? And can this Woman, his Mother and my Enemy, be so mighty and invincible in her opposition to me? New is such power in a mere creature, and no doubt She derived it from the divine Word, whom She clothed in human flesh. Through this Woman the Almighty has ceaselessly waged war against me, though I have hated Her in my pride from the moment I recognized Her in her image or heavenly sign. But if my proud indignation is not to be assuaged, I benefit nothing by my perpetual war against this Redeemer, against his Mother and against men. Now then, ye demons who follow me, now is the time to give way to our wrath against God. Come all of ye to take counsel what we are to do; for I desire to hear your opinions.”
Some of the principal demons gave their answers to this dreadful proposal, encouraging Lucifer by suggesting diverse schemes for hindering the fruit of the Redemption among men. They all agreed that it was not possible to injure the person of Christ, to diminish the immense value of his merits, to destroy the efficacy of the Sacraments, to falsify or abolish the doctrine which Christ had preached; yet they resolved that, in accordance with the new order of assistance and favor established by God for the salvation of men, they should now seek new ways of hindering and preventing the work of God by much the greater deceits and temptations. In reference to these plans some of the astute and malicious demons said “It is true, that men now have at their disposal a new and very powerful doctrine and law, new and efficacious Sacraments, a new Model and Instructor of virtues, a powerful Intercessor and Advocate in this Woman; yet the natural inclinations and passions of the flesh remain just the same, and the sensible and delectable creatures have not changed their nature. Let us then, making use of this situation with increased astuteness, foil as far as in us lies the effects of what this Godman has wrought for men. Let us begin strenuous warfare against mankind by suggesting new attractions, exciting them to follow their passions in forgetfulness of all else. Thus men, being taken up with these dangerous things, cannot attend to the contrary.”
Acting upon this counsel they redistributed the spheres of work among themselves, in order that each squadron of demons might, with a specialized astuteness tempt men to different vices. They resolved to continue to propagate idolatry in the world, so that men might not come to the knowledge of the true God and the Redemption. Wherever idolatry would fail, they concluded to establish sects and heresies, for which they would select the most perverse and depraved of the human race as leaders and teachers of error. Then and there was concocted among these malignant spirits the sect of Mahomet, the heresies of Arius, Pelagius, Nestorius, and whatever other heresies have been started in the world from the first ages of the Church until now, together with those which they have in readiness, but which it is neither necessary nor proper to mention here. Lucifer showed himself content with these infernal counsels as being opposed to divine truth and destructive of the very foundation of man’s rescue, namely divine faith. He lavished flattering praise and high offices upon those demons, who showed themselves willing and who undertook to find the impious originators of these errors."
See Book 6: Chaper 10 - The Victory of Christ over Hell.
http://www.ecatholic2000.com/agreda/mystical/city.shtml
God bless!
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To Gooch:
Apropos the warning about Rome becoming the seat of the antichrist, it is reasonable to conclude with reference to Sacred Scripture that it refers to an individual person.;
1 John 2:18
"Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that Antichrist cometh."
It would be in character with the messages of heaven which are routinely admonitionary, to advise of such an occurrence.
We do have a warning on the New Mass through Marie Julie Jahenny and Sr Jeanne Le Royer; but I have never seen even a hint about a succession of invalid popes. Has anyone else?
God bless!
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"But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there shall be among you lying teachers, who shall bring in sects of perdition, and deny the Lord who bought them: bringing upon themselves swift destruction."
Huh. Sounds like the perfect verse prophesying lying teachers/anti-popes and the Vatican II sect of perdition.
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To 2Vermont:
For me, study of the character of heavenly revelations suggests we would be warned of a situation of the highest gravity such as a line of false popes.
For example, if you study the revelation to Marie-Julie Jahenny, we are informed of the new mass and even safe places to live in France during the coming chastisement, yet we hear nothing about this.
http://www.catholictradition.org/Passion/jahenny.htm
God bless!
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We have been warned. You just don't see the warnings because it's not the way YOU wish to see them.
The bible verse I posted is absolutely relevant. You just wish to ignore it.
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To 2Vermont,
Nowhere have we been alerted of a line of anti-popes. It is out of character for heavenly revelations/prophecies not to provide particular warning on this.
Our Lord is our Good Shepherd. Objectively, no-one can fail to identify this as a curious, even glaring omission.
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To Ladislaus:
The prophecy from St Francis refers to ONE person; not a string of anti-popes.
God bless!
Failure to mention the others doesn't mean anything.
At the end of the day, andysloan, the absence of this in prophecy means nothing. I don't recall anything in Catholic prophecy about a destructive Church Council either. All it means is that God, for whatever reason, chose not to reveal this through any prophecy. Imagine if Our Lady of Fatima had warned, "There will be a destructive Council in the pontificate of John XIII that will undermine the faith and wreak havoc on the Church." That would have averted the effects of Vatican II and would have undermined what God willed to accomplish in allowing it ... a chastisement, a purification, a sifting of the true faithful, etc. I do believe Our Lady probably mentioned Vatican II and the Antipopes in the Third Secret, but that has been kept hidden from us due to the disobedience of the Popes ... just as Our Lord asked the kings of France to consecrate the country to His Sacred Heart; they brought destruction on their country through their refusal.
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To Ladislaus:
With the greatest respect to you, it is simply absurd to state that the Prophecy of St Francis refers to anything but one particular individual:
"At the time of this tribulation a man, not canonically elected, will be raised to the Pontificate, who, by his cunning, will endeavour to draw many into error and death. Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it under foot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days JESUS CHRIST WILL SEND THEM NOT A TRUE PASTOR, BUT A DESTROYER."
And heaven has warned us about Vatican 2:
Sister Jeanne le Royer (Sister of the Nativity - died 1798)
"One day I heard that the New Constitution (Vatican 2) will appear to many other than what it really is. They will bless it as a gift from Heaven; whereas it is in fact sent form hell and permitted by God in His just wrath. It will only be by its side effects that people will be led to recognize the Dragon who wanted to destroy all and devour all. One night I saw a number of ecclesiastics. Their haughtiness and air of severity seemed to demand the respect of all. They forced the faithful to follow them. But God commanded me to oppose them saying: They no longer have the right to speak my name Jesus told me. It is against My wish that they carry out a mandate for which they are no longer worthy of."
"I saw a great power rise up against the Church. it plundered, devastated, and threw into confusion and disorder the vine of the Lord, having it trampled underfoot by the people and holding it up to ridicule by all nations. Having vilified celibacy and oppressed the priesthood, it had the effrontery to confiscate the Church's property and to arrogate to itself the powers of the Holy Father, whose person and laws it held in contempt."
"I had a vision; Before the Father and the Son- both seated-- a virgin of incomparable beauty, representing the Church, was kneeling. The Holy Ghost spread his shining wings over the virgin and the other two persons. The wound of our Lord seemed alive. Leaning on the Cross with one hand, He offered to His Father with the other hand the chalice which the Master held in the middle. The Father placed one hand on the cup and raised the other to bless the virgin. I noticed that the chalice was only half filled with blood, and I heard these words spoken by our Savior at the moment of presentation; I shall not be fully satisfied until I am unable to fill it right up to the brim. I understood then that the contents of the chalice represented the blood of the early martyrs, and that the vision had reference to the last persecutions of Christians, whose blood would fill the chalice thereby completing the number of martyrs predestined. For at the end of time, there will be as many martyrs as in the early Church and even more, for the persecutions will be far more violent. Then the last Judgment will no longer be delayed."
"I see in God that a long time before the rise of the Antichrist the world will be afflicted with many bloody wars. Peoples will rise against peoples, and nations will rise against nations, sometimes allied, sometimes enemies, in their fight against the same party. Army’s will come into frightful collisions and will fill the earth with murder and carnage. These internal and foreign wars will cause enormous sacrifices, profanations, scandals, and infinite evils, because of the incursions that will be made into the Church. As well as that I see the earth will be shaken in different places by frightful earthquakes. I see the whole mountains cracking and splitting with a terrible din. Only too happy will one be if one can escape with no more than a fright; but no, I see out of the gaping mountains whirlwinds of smoke, fire, sulphur and tar, which reduce to cinders entire towns. All this and a thousand other disasters must come before the rise of the Man of Sin."
"I saw in the Light of the Lord that the Faith and our Holy Religion would become weaker in almost every Christian Kingdom. God has permitted that they should be chastised by the wicked in order to awaken them form their apathy. And after the Justice of God has been satisfied, He will pour out an abundance of graces on His Church. And He will spread the Faith and restore discipline of the Church in those countries where it had become tepid and lax. I see in God a great power led by the Holy Ghost which will restore order through a second upheaval. I see in God a large assembly of pastors who will uphold the rights of the Church (not man) and of Her Head. They will restore the former disciplines. I, see in particular two servants of the Lord who will distinguish themselves in this glorious struggle and who, by the grace of God, will fill with ardent zeal the hearts of this illustrious assembly."
"All false cults will be abolished; all the abuses of the Revolution (Vatican 2) will be destroyed and the altars of the true God restored. The former practices will be put into force again (preVatican 2) and our religion--at least in some respects will flourish more than ever. I see in God that the Church will enjoy a profound peace over a period which seems to be a fairly long duration. This respite will be the longest of all that will occur between the revolutions from now till General Judgment. The closer we draw to General Judgment the shorter will be the revolutions against the Church. The kind of peace that will follow each revolution will also be shorter. This is because we are approaching the End. One day the Lord said to me " A few years before the coming of My enemy, Satan will rise up false prophets who will announce Antichrist as true Messiah, and they try to destroy all our Christian beliefs. The closer we get to Antichrist the more darkness will spread over the earth and the more his satellites will increase their efforts to trap the faithful into their nets. When the Antichrist draws near a false religion (masonry-religion of man) will appear which will deny the unity of God and will oppose the Church. Errors will cause ravages as never before."
"God has manifested to me the malice of Lucifer and the perverse and diabolical intentions of his henchmen against the Holy Church of Christ. At the command of their master these wicked men have crossed the world like the furies to prepare the way and place for the Antichrist whose reign is approaching. The storm began in France and France shall be the first theatre of its ravages after having been its cradle. The Church in council shall one day strike with anathemas to pull down and to destroy the evil principles of that criminal constitution (Vatican 2). "
Nothing about a string of anti-popes though.
God bless!
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To Ladislaus:
With the greatest respect to you, it is simply absurd to state that the Prophecy of St Francis refers to anything but one particular individual:
"At the time of this tribulation a man, not canonically elected, will be raised to the Pontificate, who, by his cunning, will endeavour to draw many into error and death. Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it under foot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days JESUS CHRIST WILL SEND THEM NOT A TRUE PASTOR, BUT A DESTROYER."
Nonsense, andysloan. This is referring to a specific individual and in my opinion refers to the fact that Cardinal Siri was elected in 1958 but then Angelo Roncalli uncanonically usurped the papacy, with the forced resignation of Gregory XVII being invalid. St. Francis didn't say that this pope was heretical but zeroed in on uncanonical election, which IMO has to be a reference to the usurpation from Cardinal Siri. Just because St. Francis is speaking HERE about one individual and does not explicitly mention his successors absolutely DOES NOT MEAN that there couldn't have been successors.
Again, I point out that theology does not derive from private revelation.
andysloan, you continue to put on a guise of humility but then wax prophetic, as if you're inspired by the Holy Spirit, in pronouncing on matters with absolute certainty. Please give it a rest.
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The Second Epistle of St. Paul to the Thessalonians, Chapter 2 (http://traditionalcatholic.net/Scripture/New_Testament/The_Second_Epistle_of_St._Paul_to_the_Thessalonians/Chapter-2.html)
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To Ladislaus
And not for the first time you are advised:
1 Tim 6:3-5
"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to that doctrine which is according to godliness, He is proud, knowing nothing, but sick about questions and strifes of words; from which arise envies, contentions, blasphemies, evil suspicions, Conflicts of men corrupted in mind, and who are destitute of the truth,"
It is a serious business all this shaping sound teaching according to your own conviction, rather then your conviction being shaped by teaching.
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To 2Vermont,
Nowhere have we been alerted of a line of anti-popes. It is out of character for heavenly revelations/prophecies not to provide particular warning on this.
Our Lord is our Good Shepherd. Objectively, no-one can fail to identify this as a curious, even glaring omission.
A few comments:
(1)You do realize that it is Church teaching that one is not required to believe in private revelation, right?
(2)Couldn't it possibly be forewarned in the Third Secret? And if so, why wouldn't the anti-Church reveal it?
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I understand the church teaching on private revelation. But why does heaven give private revelation if not for our instruction?
1 Corinthians 14:6
"But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, unless I speak to you either in revelation, or in knowledge, or in prophecy, or in doctrine?"
We don't know the exact text of the 3rd secret. But quoting from the "SuscipeDomine" website:
"Father Malachi Martin has told us that he has read the Third Secret — he announced that on the Art Bell radio program, which we have on audio tape. In addition, in answer to a number of questions, Father Malachi Martin stated that Our Lady came to Garabandal, Spain, because the Third Secret was not released in 1960 as She had requested. As a result, Our Lady appeared in 1961 — one year after the Vatican failed to release the Third Secret — and She basically released the Secret to the four children at Garabandal, or at least within the message of Garabandal. And the most striking thing of all in that message is "many Cardinals, bishops and priests are going to hell and dragging many souls with them" and that a great chastisement awaits mankind because of the sins of this time."
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http://www.novusordowatch.org/sheen.htm#.UzbkcBCOP0E
"[Satan] will set up a counterchurch which will be the ape of the [Catholic] Church. . . . It will have all the notes and characteristics of the Church, but in reverse and emptied of its divine content." -Mgr. Fulton J. Sheen
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That's right. We don't know.
But Scripture has warned us of lying, false teachers creating diabolical sects. And that is public revelation.
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The Holy Gospel of Jesus Christ, According to St. Matthew, Chapter 24 (http://traditionalcatholic.net/Scripture/New_Testament/The_Holy_Gospel_of_Jesus_Christ,_According_to_St._Matthew/Chapter-24.html)
24:4 And Jesus answering, said to them: Take heed that no man seduce you:
24:4 et respondens Iesus dixit eis videte ne quis vos seducat
24:5 For many will come in my name saying, I am Christ: and they will seduce many.
24:5 multi enim venient in nomine meo dicentes ego sum Christus et multos seducent
...
24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall seduce many.
24:11 et multi pseudoprophetae surgent et seducent multos
...
24:24 For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect.
24:24 surgent enim pseudochristi et pseudoprophetae et dabunt signa magna et prodigia ita ut in errorem inducantur si fieri potest etiam electi
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To JohnAnthonyMarie,
It looks like the conciliar church is the intermediate step to the insight given by the great Bishop Sheen:
“. . .Antichrist and his prophet will introduce ceremonies to imitate the Sacraments of the Church. In fact there will be a complete organization - a church of Satan set up in opposition to the Church of Christ. Satan will assume the part of God the Father; Antichrist will be honored as Savior, and his prophet will usurp the role of Pope. Their ceremonies will counterfeit the Sacraments . . .” Father E. Sylvester Berry - The Apocalypse of St. John (1921).
Matthew 24:15-16
"When therefore you shall see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place: he that readeth let him understand.
Then they that are in Judea, let them flee to the mountains:"
Apocalypse 13:15
"And it was given him to give life to the image of the beast, and that the image of the beast should speak; and should cause, that whosoever will not adore the image of the beast, should be slain."
Perhaps the adoration of the image of the antichrist is the inverse of our worship of Christ in the Blessed Sacrament.
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To 2Vermont:
Augustine says against the Manichees [Cf. De Civ. Dei xviii, 1]: "In Christ's Church, those are heretics, who hold mischievous and erroneous opinions, and when rebuked that they may think soundly and rightly, offer a stubborn resistance, and, refusing to mend their pernicious and deadly doctrines, persist in defending them." Now pernicious and deadly doctrines are none but those which are contrary to the dogmas of faith, whereby "the just man liveth" - Summa Theologica - On Heresy
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I don't see anywhere in prophecy where it even speaks about a series of BAD popes, but we've had those too.
Please put aside your prophetic charism and try to deal with fact and theology.
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To Ladislaus
And not for the first time you are advised:
...
It is a serious business all this shaping sound teaching according to your own conviction, rather then your conviction being shaped by teaching.
andysloan, please stop this utter nonsense wherein you equate your own opinion about some matter with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
So you are my "teacher" now? And you are "advising" me (with some kind of pseudo-solemn tone) about not heeding your latest rant.
Get off this sanctimonious self-serving high horse of yours.
Honestly, I find you more annoying than even the die-hard BoDers.
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Ladislaus said:
"Please put aside your prophetic charism and try to deal with fact and theology."
This is fact and theology. There is no prophecy I have ever seen that speaks of a line of invalid-popes.
And as you demonstrate with the stridency of your responses, you are uncomfortable about this. And this because it contradicts your conviction, which is your first allegiance above truth and is founded on your pride which seeks exclusivity above others:
Augustine says (De Util. Credendi i) that "a heretic is one who either devises or follows false and new opinions, for the sake of some temporal profit, especially that he may lord and be honored above others." - Summa Theologica - On Heresy
Such behaviour cannot be pleasing to God and when the great warning comes, you rebels will be called on this and you have no excuse, because you have been warned multiple times:
"...a great day, not wherein any temporal potentate should minister, but wherein the Terrible Judge should reveal all men's consciences and try every man of each kind of religion." St Edmund Campion
"a great purification will come upon the world preceded by an 'illumination of conscience' in which everyone will see themselves as God sees them" - Blessed Anna Maria Taigi.
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So, Andy, where was the so-called needed prophecy for the numerous bad popes? numerous anti-popes? Great Western Schism? The East-West Schism?
And where, in Church teaching/public revelation, does it teach that God will provide private revelations to warn His people 100% of the time?
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To 2vermont
The same admonition given to Ladislaus applies to you.
The reasoning provided through the thread is sound.
All this division is not of God:
Philippians 3:15
"Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, be thus minded; and if in any thing you be otherwise minded, this also God will reveal to you."
And you people over-riding even common-sense, will have to give an account to God for you cleaving to error in self-justification. It seems not to trouble you now, but the great warning is not far away.
Summa Theologica - on Unbelief
As stated above (Article 5), two things may be considered in unbelief. One of these is its relation to faith: and from this point of view, he who resists the faith after accepting it, sins more grievously against faith, than he who resists it without having accepted it, even as he who fails to fulfil what he has promised, sins more grievously than if he had never promised it. On this way the unbelief of heretics, who confess their belief in the Gospel, and resist that faith by corrupting it, is a more grievous sin than that of the Jєωs, who have never accepted the Gospel faith. Since, however, they accepted the figure of that faith in the Old Law, which they corrupt by their false interpretations, their unbelief is a more grievous sin than that of the heathens, because the latter have not accepted the Gospel faith in any way at all.
The second thing to be considered in unbelief is the corruption of matters of faith. On this respect, since heathens err on more points than Jєωs, and these in more points than heretics, the unbelief of heathens is more grievous than the unbelief of the Jєωs, and that of the Jєωs than that of the heretics, except in such cases as that of the Manichees, who, in matters of faith, err even more than heathens do.
Of these two gravities the first surpasses the second from the point of view of guilt; since, as stated above (Article 1) unbelief has the character of guilt, from its resisting faith rather than from the mere absence of faith, for the latter as was stated (1) seems rather to bear the character of punishment. Hence, speaking absolutely, the unbelief of heretics is the worst.
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To 2vermont
The same admonition given to Ladislaus applies to you.
I'm sorry, but I think that you need to be banned. It's much easier to deal with SJB calling me an idiot than with these sanctimonious "admonitions".
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To 2vermont
The reasoning provided through the thread is sound.
Actually, no it is not. You assert that sedevacantism CAN NOT be true because there has never been prophecy to support it.
Therefore, you believe that prophecy will always be a precursor to terrible things that happen in the Church.
So, I've asked you for similar prophecy for a number of other terrible things that has happened in the Church and you have FAILED to provide said prophecy. I have also asked you to show us where it is in Church teaching that prophecy always comes before certain events in Church history. And you have provided none. In other words, you have not proven sedevacantism is false.
On the contrary, it is your so-called "theology" of prophecy that is altogether FALSE.
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For me, study of the character of heavenly revelations suggests we would be warned of a situation of the highest gravity such as a line of false popes.
andysloan, you have begun with a premise, that prophesy would have to warn of us this current crisis in the Church specifically. I submit that your premise is false. There is no reason to believe that this must be the case. Trying to chart the course of the future using even authentic prophesy is a fools errand. Prophesy only becomes clear to us after the events have been fulfilled. It is given for the edification of the faithful that God is in control and his Providence directs all events from eternity. It is not a crystal ball for the future (or even for the present). We should stick to prayer, Catholic dogma/doctrine and the use of our right reason. That I believe is a surer course than seeking after prophesies that we cannot know for sure apply directly to us and our time.
There are many good and well thought out reasons to not accept the sedevacante thesis, this is not one of them. This is nearly as dumb as the argument sedevacantism can't be right because no saints were sedevacantist or mentioned it. Well no $%&^, there has never been a crisis like this present one in the Churches history!!!
Luke
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To Ladislaus;
You are legitimately rebuked!
1 Thessalonians 5:14
"And we beseech you, brethren, rebuke the unquiet."
You who say that the Dialogues of St Catherine Of Siena are inadmissable in proof of BOD:
1 Corinthians 14:6
"But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, unless I speak to you either in revelation, or in knowledge, or in prophecy, or in doctrine?"
But such rebuke is deeply offensive to your pride.
Once the great warning comes, there will be not an anti-bod proponent on this site. Integral to the warning will be knowledge of offense caused to others. Then, you will understand!
Ezechiel 9:4
"And the Lord said to him: Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem: and mark Thau upon the foreheads of the men that sigh, and mourn for all the abominations that are committed in the midst thereof."
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OK, this is just comical now.
I'm moving on.
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To 2Vermont
Prophecy is ALWAYS GIVEN before anything terrible happens within the church and I have already given you examples.
Wisdom 7:17-18
"For he hath given me the true knowledge of the things that are: to know the disposition of the whole world, and the virtues of the elements, The beginning, and ending, and midst of the times, "
Psalms 59:6
"Thou hast given a warning to them that fear thee: that they may flee from before the bow: That thy beloved may be delivered."
John 14:29
"And now I have told you before it comes to pass: that when it shall come to pass, you may believe."
The fact a string of anti-popes is not mentioned in the profusion of prophecies of our times is a glaring aberration (if it were not for the fact that popes are valid, though conciliar.) This is not an absolute proof of the falsity of sedevacancy, but it is certainly noteworthy.
But you rebels against authority will employ the usual methods to diminish this, because your position is based not on fidelity to Catholic truth, but to pride and you have thus been deprived by the Holy Ghost of understanding. You are they as mentioned by Our Lady of La Salette:
"Tremble, O earth! And tremble you also who make profession of serving Jesus Christ, but inwardly worship yourselves because God has delivered you to his enemies, because corruption is in holy places."
There has been far to much cordial persuasion used to disabuse your from your pernicious errors, so more than likely it will have to be the fear of the warning and the chastisement that will be necessary in the effort to force you to recant.
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Andy, have you read this:
http://www.novusordowatch.org/francis.htm#.UzcrNie9KSM
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To 2Vermont
Prophecy is ALWAYS GIVEN before anything terrible happens within the church and I have already given you examples.
Wisdom 7:17-18
"For he hath given me the true knowledge of the things that are: to know the disposition of the whole world, and the virtues of the elements, The beginning, and ending, and midst of the times, "
Psalms 59:6
"Thou hast given a warning to them that fear thee: that they may flee from before the bow: That thy beloved may be delivered."
John 14:29
"And now I have told you before it comes to pass: that when it shall come to pass, you may believe."
The fact a string of anti-popes is not mentioned in the profusion of prophecies of our times is a glaring aberration (if it were not for the fact that popes are valid, though conciliar.) This is not an absolute proof of the falsity of sedevacancy, but it is certainly noteworthy.
But you rebels against authority will employ the usual methods to diminish this, because your position is based not on fidelity to Catholic truth, but to pride and you have thus been deprived by the Holy Ghost of understanding. You are they as mentioned by Our Lady of La Salette:
"Tremble, O earth! And tremble you also who make profession of serving Jesus Christ, but inwardly worship yourselves because God has delivered you to his enemies, because corruption is in holy places."
There has been far to much cordial persuasion used to disabuse your from your pernicious errors, so more than likely it will have to be the fear of the warning and the chastisement that will be necessary in the effort to force you to recant.
Still waiting for the prophecies regarding the many things I asked for earlier in the thread.
You're a tool.
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To Luker:
You said:
"andysloan, you have begun with a premise, that prophesy would have to warn of us this current crisis in the Church specifically. I submit that your premise is false."
I would submit to you that the premise is true - La Salette, Our Lady of Good Success, Marie Julie Jahenney for a start.
You said:
"Prophesy only becomes clear to us after the events have been fulfilled."
That is clearly wrong. Otherwise it diminishes the forewarning purpose of prophesy. eg
Marie Julie Jahheny
November 27, 1902 and May 10, 1904, Our Lord and Our Lady announced the conspiracy to invent the "New Mass": "I give you a WARNING. The disciples who are not of My Gospel are now working hard to remake according to their ideas and under the influence of the enemy of souls a MASS that contains words that are ODIOUS in My sight. When the fatal hour arrives when the faith of my priests is put to the test, it will be (these texts) that will be celebrated in this SECOND period ... The FIRST period is (the one) of my priesthood which exists since Me. The SECOND is (the one) of the persecution when the ENEMIES of the Faith and of Holy Religion (will impose their formulas) in the book of the second celebration ... These infamous spirits are those who crucified Me and are awaiting the kingdom of THE NEW MESSIAH."
Given prophesy warns of extraordinary events and a line of anti-popes is an extraordinary event, then it is not a dumb consideration as to whether the sedevacantism position is erroneous, but rather a powerful one.
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To Ambrose:
I certainly have read about Francis, but for what its worth, my study of prophecy suggests Francis is a warm-up for the true destroyer. The evidence in support of this is here:
http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php?a=topic&t=30731&min=30&num=5
The common-sense view is that as long as he is validly elected, a man can take the position of the Pope and he can promulgate dogma by the power of the keys resting in the Seat of Peter, not in himself. I don't accept that Vatican 2 and the Novus Ordo are valid justification for sedevacantism, as the council was not dogmatic and the consequences represent errors/infections in the church rather than formal apostasy.
I know that it is church law that if a pope is a heretic, he loses his authority and he must be deposed. However, for a pope to be guilty of heresy, surely the standard would be that he must formally deny some church teaching or add a false one. For example, the horrendous statement by Pope Francis about the church being "too concerned about abortion, ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity etc", whilst utterly abhorrent, is insufficient to meet the aforementioned measure. Tomorrow, moved by grace, he may say deny that assertion. Thus, he is a valid pope and we are bound to him as our Head, but as faith stands above obedience, we are bound to cleave to tradition even if he sought to ban it.
There are too many people looking to find error for the sake of it.
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To Ambrose:
I certainly have read about Francis, but for what its worth, my study of prophecy suggests Francis is a warm-up for the true destroyer. The evidence in support of this is here:
http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php?a=topic&t=30731&min=30&num=5
The common-sense view is that as long as he is validly elected, a man can take the position of the Pope and he can promulgate dogma by the power of the keys resting in the Seat of Peter, not in himself. I don't accept that Vatican 2 and the Novus Ordo are valid justification for sedevacantism, as the council was not dogmatic and the consequences represent errors/infections in the church rather than formal apostasy.
I know that it is church law that if a pope is a heretic, he loses his authority and he must be deposed. However, for a pope to be guilty of heresy, surely the standard would be that he must formally deny some church teaching or add a false one. For example, the horrendous statement by Pope Francis about the church being "too concerned about abortion, ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity etc", whilst utterly abhorrent, is insufficient to meet the aforementioned measure. Tomorrow, moved by grace, he may say deny that assertion. Thus, he is a valid pope and we are bound to him as our Head, but as faith stands above obedience, we are bound to cleave to tradition even if he sought to ban it.
There are too many people looking to find error for the sake of it.
I disagree, Paul VI, John Paul II, Benedict XVI, and Francis are all destroyers.
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To 2Vermont
You said:
"Still waiting for the prophecies regarding the many things I asked for earlier in the thread."
..which is simply an effort to avoid dealing with the absence of prophetic support to the sedevacantist position. Prophecy and revelation have always been in the church:
1 Corinthians 14:6
"But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, unless I speak to you either in revelation, or in knowledge, or in prophecy, or in doctrine?"
2 Thessalonians 2:5
"Remember you not, that when I was yet with you, I told you these things?"
Here is an apposite comment:
"Private revelation is an inspiration or revelation given by God to individuals for their own benefit or for the profit of others, as St. Paul tells us: “Now the manifestation of the Spirit is given to everyone for profit.” (1 Cor. 12:7). Unlike Divine revelation, no one is bound to believe in private revelation. But if a private revelation is authentic, then to withhold belief in it would be tantamount to turning a deaf ear to God. Such an act would result in the loss of spiritual goods, as St. Thomas Aquinas teaches: “prophecy, like other gratuitous graces, is given for the good of the Church.” (Summa, SS – 172, 4). God always has a purpose for whatever He does, and if He reveals something to us, we can be assured that He does so for our own good. Only a foolish man would ignore what the infinite wisdom of God chooses to reveal."
With the chastisement on the horizon, you people who know you are wrong in your hearts are crazy not to face up to this.
Luke 12:59
"I say to thee, thou shalt not go out thence, until thou pay the very last mite."
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I disagree, Paul VI, John Paul II, Benedict XVI, and Francis are all destroyers.
So are you, Ambrose. You try to destroy the dogmas of the Church.
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To Ambrose:
St Francis speaks in the singular:
"At the time of this tribulation a man, not canonically elected, will be raised to the Pontificate, who, by his cunning, will endeavour to draw many into error and death."
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I disagree, Paul VI, John Paul II, Benedict XVI, and Francis are all destroyers.
So are you, Ambrose. You try to destroy the dogmas of the Church.
No, only in the mind of one who is attacking it.
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LMAO
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To 2Vermont
Ephesians 5:13
"But all things that are reproved, are made manifest by the light; for all that is made manifest is light."
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Christ said, in Matthew 24 go to the prophet Daniel. Chapter 12 of Daniel states and the Church theologians agree that the Eternal Sacrifice will come to an end. What is understood, the Christ's Blood is Eternal but the Sacrifice of the Mass, the Continual will come to an end. Now, how is that to come about? Do we not see that coming? But is it possible that man would see to it that it would come to this? If no Mass, no Sacrifice, would that not include all sacraments which have Our Lord's Precious Blood and it is of Our Lady. The enemy knows where the Powers are and what will happen without the Powers.
Is this prophecy enough to tell us How, it will come about? No, But what will it take for it to take place. We are left to ponder and for such a tragedy to occur, this is the Worst, to lose salvation for souls. If we lose our bodies is one thing, but souls are in the hands of our clergy.
Why was it so important to have Vatican I to prove Infallibility. Defining is of the utmost, and that makes it Ex Cathedra. To prove Infallibility, "True Pope" had to be defined to prove Infallibility. Thank God for this, for it was So Important for us today, to come to understanding "Is this pope a True Pope?"
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To Ladislaus:
With the greatest respect to you, it is simply absurd to state that the Prophecy of St Francis refers to anything but one particular individual:
"At the time of this tribulation a man, not canonically elected, will be raised to the Pontificate, who, by his cunning, will endeavour to draw many into error and death. Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it under foot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days JESUS CHRIST WILL SEND THEM NOT A TRUE PASTOR, BUT A DESTROYER."
And heaven has warned us about Vatican 2:
Sister Jeanne le Royer (Sister of the Nativity - died 1798)
"One day I heard that the New Constitution (Vatican 2) will appear to many other than what it really is. They will bless it as a gift from Heaven; whereas it is in fact sent form hell and permitted by God in His just wrath. It will only be by its side effects that people will be led to recognize the Dragon who wanted to destroy all and devour all. One night I saw a number of ecclesiastics. Their haughtiness and air of severity seemed to demand the respect of all. They forced the faithful to follow them. But God commanded me to oppose them saying: They no longer have the right to speak my name Jesus told me. It is against My wish that they carry out a mandate for which they are no longer worthy of."
"I saw a great power rise up against the Church. it plundered, devastated, and threw into confusion and disorder the vine of the Lord, having it trampled underfoot by the people and holding it up to ridicule by all nations. Having vilified celibacy and oppressed the priesthood, it had the effrontery to confiscate the Church's property and to arrogate to itself the powers of the Holy Father, whose person and laws it held in contempt."
"I had a vision; Before the Father and the Son- both seated-- a virgin of incomparable beauty, representing the Church, was kneeling. The Holy Ghost spread his shining wings over the virgin and the other two persons. The wound of our Lord seemed alive. Leaning on the Cross with one hand, He offered to His Father with the other hand the chalice which the Master held in the middle. The Father placed one hand on the cup and raised the other to bless the virgin. I noticed that the chalice was only half filled with blood, and I heard these words spoken by our Savior at the moment of presentation; I shall not be fully satisfied until I am unable to fill it right up to the brim. I understood then that the contents of the chalice represented the blood of the early martyrs, and that the vision had reference to the last persecutions of Christians, whose blood would fill the chalice thereby completing the number of martyrs predestined. For at the end of time, there will be as many martyrs as in the early Church and even more, for the persecutions will be far more violent. Then the last Judgment will no longer be delayed."
"I see in God that a long time before the rise of the Antichrist the world will be afflicted with many bloody wars. Peoples will rise against peoples, and nations will rise against nations, sometimes allied, sometimes enemies, in their fight against the same party. Army’s will come into frightful collisions and will fill the earth with murder and carnage. These internal and foreign wars will cause enormous sacrifices, profanations, scandals, and infinite evils, because of the incursions that will be made into the Church. As well as that I see the earth will be shaken in different places by frightful earthquakes. I see the whole mountains cracking and splitting with a terrible din. Only too happy will one be if one can escape with no more than a fright; but no, I see out of the gaping mountains whirlwinds of smoke, fire, sulphur and tar, which reduce to cinders entire towns. All this and a thousand other disasters must come before the rise of the Man of Sin."
"I saw in the Light of the Lord that the Faith and our Holy Religion would become weaker in almost every Christian Kingdom. God has permitted that they should be chastised by the wicked in order to awaken them form their apathy. And after the Justice of God has been satisfied, He will pour out an abundance of graces on His Church. And He will spread the Faith and restore discipline of the Church in those countries where it had become tepid and lax. I see in God a great power led by the Holy Ghost which will restore order through a second upheaval. I see in God a large assembly of pastors who will uphold the rights of the Church (not man) and of Her Head. They will restore the former disciplines. I, see in particular two servants of the Lord who will distinguish themselves in this glorious struggle and who, by the grace of God, will fill with ardent zeal the hearts of this illustrious assembly."
"All false cults will be abolished; all the abuses of the Revolution (Vatican 2) will be destroyed and the altars of the true God restored. The former practices will be put into force again (preVatican 2) and our religion--at least in some respects will flourish more than ever. I see in God that the Church will enjoy a profound peace over a period which seems to be a fairly long duration. This respite will be the longest of all that will occur between the revolutions from now till General Judgment. The closer we draw to General Judgment the shorter will be the revolutions against the Church. The kind of peace that will follow each revolution will also be shorter. This is because we are approaching the End. One day the Lord said to me " A few years before the coming of My enemy, Satan will rise up false prophets who will announce Antichrist as true Messiah, and they try to destroy all our Christian beliefs. The closer we get to Antichrist the more darkness will spread over the earth and the more his satellites will increase their efforts to trap the faithful into their nets. When the Antichrist draws near a false religion (masonry-religion of man) will appear which will deny the unity of God and will oppose the Church. Errors will cause ravages as never before."
"God has manifested to me the malice of Lucifer and the perverse and diabolical intentions of his henchmen against the Holy Church of Christ. At the command of their master these wicked men have crossed the world like the furies to prepare the way and place for the Antichrist whose reign is approaching. The storm began in France and France shall be the first theatre of its ravages after having been its cradle. The Church in council shall one day strike with anathemas to pull down and to destroy the evil principles of that criminal constitution (Vatican 2). "
Nothing about a string of anti-popes though.
God bless!
"Having vilified celibacy and oppressed the priesthood, it had the effrontery to confiscate the Church's property and to arrogate to itself the powers of the Holy Father, whose person and laws it held in contempt."
A false power that hates the Papacy taking to itself the Papacy in an illegitimate Fashion.
That's an antipope, or a Non-Pope. Pretty clear to me.