Author Topic: Sedevacantism not found in prophecy (Read 4343 times)

Ladislaus · « **Reply #30 on:** March 29, 2014, 12:54:20 PM »

Quote from: andysloan

To 2vermont

The same admonition given to Ladislaus applies to you.

I'm sorry, but I think that you need to be banned. It's much easier to deal with SJB calling me an idiot than with these sanctimonious "admonitions".

2Vermont · « **Reply #31 on:** March 29, 2014, 01:12:21 PM »

Quote from: andysloan

To 2vermont

The reasoning provided through the thread is sound.

Actually, no it is not. You assert that sedevacantism CAN NOT be true because there has never been prophecy to support it.

Therefore, you believe that prophecy will always be a precursor to terrible things that happen in the Church.

So, I've asked you for similar prophecy for a number of other terrible things that has happened in the Church and you have FAILED to provide said prophecy. I have also asked you to show us where it is in Church teaching that prophecy always comes before certain events in Church history. And you have provided none. In other words, you have not proven sedevacantism is false.

On the contrary, it is your so-called "theology" of prophecy that is altogether FALSE.

Luker · « **Reply #32 on:** March 29, 2014, 01:34:48 PM »

Quote from: andysloan

For me, study of the character of heavenly revelations suggests we would be warned of a situation of the highest gravity such as a line of false popes.

andysloan, you have begun with a premise, that prophesy would have to warn of us this current crisis in the Church specifically. I submit that your premise is false. There is no reason to believe that this must be the case. Trying to chart the course of the future using even authentic prophesy is a fools errand. Prophesy only becomes clear to us after the events have been fulfilled. It is given for the edification of the faithful that God is in control and his Providence directs all events from eternity. It is not a crystal ball for the future (or even for the present). We should stick to prayer, Catholic dogma/doctrine and the use of our right reason. That I believe is a surer course than seeking after prophesies that we cannot know for sure apply directly to us and our time.

There are many good and well thought out reasons to not accept the sedevacante thesis, this is not one of them. This is nearly as dumb as the argument sedevacantism can't be right because no saints were sedevacantist or mentioned it. Well no $%&^, there has never been a crisis like this present one in the Churches history!!!

Luke

andysloan · « **Reply #33 on:** March 29, 2014, 02:51:47 PM »

To Ladislaus;

You are legitimately rebuked!



1 Thessalonians 5:14

"And we beseech you, brethren, rebuke the unquiet."

You who say that the Dialogues of St Catherine Of Siena are inadmissable in proof of BOD:



1 Corinthians 14:6

"But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, unless I speak to you either in revelation, or in knowledge, or in prophecy, or in doctrine?"

But such rebuke is deeply offensive to your pride.

Once the great warning comes, there will be not an anti-bod proponent on this site. Integral to the warning will be knowledge of offense caused to others. Then, you will understand!



Ezechiel 9:4

"And the Lord said to him: Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem: and mark Thau upon the foreheads of the men that sigh, and mourn for all the abominations that are committed in the midst thereof."

2Vermont · « **Reply #34 on:** March 29, 2014, 03:01:21 PM »

OK, this is just comical now.

I'm moving on.

andysloan · « **Reply #35 on:** March 29, 2014, 03:20:00 PM »

To 2Vermont

Prophecy is ALWAYS GIVEN before anything terrible happens within the church and I have already given you examples.

Wisdom 7:17-18

"For he hath given me the true knowledge of the things that are: to know the disposition of the whole world, and the virtues of the elements, The beginning, and ending, and midst of the times, "

Psalms 59:6

"Thou hast given a warning to them that fear thee: that they may flee from before the bow: That thy beloved may be delivered."

John 14:29

"And now I have told you before it comes to pass: that when it shall come to pass, you may believe."

The fact a string of anti-popes is not mentioned in the profusion of prophecies of our times is a glaring aberration (if it were not for the fact that popes are valid, though conciliar.) This is not an absolute proof of the falsity of sedevacancy, but it is certainly noteworthy.

But you rebels against authority will employ the usual methods to diminish this, because your position is based not on fidelity to Catholic truth, but to pride and you have thus been deprived by the Holy Ghost of understanding. You are they as mentioned by Our Lady of La Salette:

"Tremble, O earth! And tremble you also who make profession of serving Jesus Christ, but inwardly worship yourselves because God has delivered you to his enemies, because corruption is in holy places."

There has been far to much cordial persuasion used to disabuse your from your pernicious errors, so more than likely it will have to be the fear of the warning and the chastisement that will be necessary in the effort to force you to recant.

Ambrose · « **Reply #36 on:** March 29, 2014, 03:22:15 PM »

Andy, have you read this:

http://www.novusordowatch.org/francis.htm#.UzcrNie9KSM

2Vermont · « **Reply #37 on:** March 29, 2014, 03:24:48 PM »

Quote from: andysloan

To 2Vermont

Prophecy is ALWAYS GIVEN before anything terrible happens within the church and I have already given you examples.

Wisdom 7:17-18

"For he hath given me the true knowledge of the things that are: to know the disposition of the whole world, and the virtues of the elements, The beginning, and ending, and midst of the times, "

Psalms 59:6

"Thou hast given a warning to them that fear thee: that they may flee from before the bow: That thy beloved may be delivered."

John 14:29

"And now I have told you before it comes to pass: that when it shall come to pass, you may believe."

The fact a string of anti-popes is not mentioned in the profusion of prophecies of our times is a glaring aberration (if it were not for the fact that popes are valid, though conciliar.) This is not an absolute proof of the falsity of sedevacancy, but it is certainly noteworthy.

But you rebels against authority will employ the usual methods to diminish this, because your position is based not on fidelity to Catholic truth, but to pride and you have thus been deprived by the Holy Ghost of understanding. You are they as mentioned by Our Lady of La Salette:

"Tremble, O earth! And tremble you also who make profession of serving Jesus Christ, but inwardly worship yourselves because God has delivered you to his enemies, because corruption is in holy places."

There has been far to much cordial persuasion used to disabuse your from your pernicious errors, so more than likely it will have to be the fear of the warning and the chastisement that will be necessary in the effort to force you to recant.

Still waiting for the prophecies regarding the many things I asked for earlier in the thread.

You're a tool.

andysloan · « **Reply #38 on:** March 29, 2014, 03:30:03 PM »

To Luker:

You said:

"andysloan, you have begun with a premise, that prophesy would have to warn of us this current crisis in the Church specifically. I submit that your premise is false."

I would submit to you that the premise is true - La Salette, Our Lady of Good Success, Marie Julie Jahenney for a start.

You said:

"Prophesy only becomes clear to us after the events have been fulfilled."

That is clearly wrong. Otherwise it diminishes the forewarning purpose of prophesy. eg

Marie Julie Jahheny

November 27, 1902 and May 10, 1904, Our Lord and Our Lady announced the conspiracy to invent the "New Mass": "I give you a WARNING. The disciples who are not of My Gospel are now working hard to remake according to their ideas and under the influence of the enemy of souls a MASS that contains words that are ODIOUS in My sight. When the fatal hour arrives when the faith of my priests is put to the test, it will be (these texts) that will be celebrated in this SECOND period ... The FIRST period is (the one) of my priesthood which exists since Me. The SECOND is (the one) of the persecution when the ENEMIES of the Faith and of Holy Religion (will impose their formulas) in the book of the second celebration ... These infamous spirits are those who crucified Me and are awaiting the kingdom of THE NEW MESSIAH."

Given prophesy warns of extraordinary events and a line of anti-popes is an extraordinary event, then it is not a dumb consideration as to whether the sedevacantism position is erroneous, but rather a powerful one.

andysloan · « **Reply #39 on:** March 29, 2014, 03:53:19 PM »

To Ambrose:

I certainly have read about Francis, but for what its worth, my study of prophecy suggests Francis is a warm-up for the true destroyer. The evidence in support of this is here:

http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php?a=topic&t=30731&min=30&num=5

The common-sense view is that as long as he is validly elected, a man can take the position of the Pope and he can promulgate dogma by the power of the keys resting in the Seat of Peter, not in himself. I don't accept that Vatican 2 and the Novus Ordo are valid justification for sedevacantism, as the council was not dogmatic and the consequences represent errors/infections in the church rather than formal apostasy.

I know that it is church law that if a pope is a heretic, he loses his authority and he must be deposed. However, for a pope to be guilty of heresy, surely the standard would be that he must formally deny some church teaching or add a false one. For example, the horrendous statement by Pope Francis about the church being "too concerned about abortion, ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity etc", whilst utterly abhorrent, is insufficient to meet the aforementioned measure. Tomorrow, moved by grace, he may say deny that assertion. Thus, he is a valid pope and we are bound to him as our Head, but as faith stands above obedience, we are bound to cleave to tradition even if he sought to ban it.

There are too many people looking to find error for the sake of it.

Ambrose · « **Reply #40 on:** March 29, 2014, 04:03:54 PM »

Quote from: andysloan

To Ambrose:

I certainly have read about Francis, but for what its worth, my study of prophecy suggests Francis is a warm-up for the true destroyer. The evidence in support of this is here:

http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php?a=topic&t=30731&min=30&num=5

The common-sense view is that as long as he is validly elected, a man can take the position of the Pope and he can promulgate dogma by the power of the keys resting in the Seat of Peter, not in himself. I don't accept that Vatican 2 and the Novus Ordo are valid justification for sedevacantism, as the council was not dogmatic and the consequences represent errors/infections in the church rather than formal apostasy.

I know that it is church law that if a pope is a heretic, he loses his authority and he must be deposed. However, for a pope to be guilty of heresy, surely the standard would be that he must formally deny some church teaching or add a false one. For example, the horrendous statement by Pope Francis about the church being "too concerned about abortion, ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity etc", whilst utterly abhorrent, is insufficient to meet the aforementioned measure. Tomorrow, moved by grace, he may say deny that assertion. Thus, he is a valid pope and we are bound to him as our Head, but as faith stands above obedience, we are bound to cleave to tradition even if he sought to ban it.

There are too many people looking to find error for the sake of it.

I disagree, Paul VI, John Paul II, Benedict XVI, and Francis are all destroyers.

andysloan · « **Reply #41 on:** March 29, 2014, 04:05:56 PM »

To 2Vermont

You said:

"Still waiting for the prophecies regarding the many things I asked for earlier in the thread."

..which is simply an effort to avoid dealing with the absence of prophetic support to the sedevacantist position. Prophecy and revelation have always been in the church:

1 Corinthians 14:6

"But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, unless I speak to you either in revelation, or in knowledge, or in prophecy, or in doctrine?"

2 Thessalonians 2:5

"Remember you not, that when I was yet with you, I told you these things?"

Here is an apposite comment:

"Private revelation is an inspiration or revelation given by God to individuals for their own benefit or for the profit of others, as St. Paul tells us: “Now the manifestation of the Spirit is given to everyone for profit.” (1 Cor. 12:7). Unlike Divine revelation, no one is bound to believe in private revelation. But if a private revelation is authentic, then to withhold belief in it would be tantamount to turning a deaf ear to God. Such an act would result in the loss of spiritual goods, as St. Thomas Aquinas teaches: “prophecy, like other gratuitous graces, is given for the good of the Church.” (Summa, SS – 172, 4). God always has a purpose for whatever He does, and if He reveals something to us, we can be assured that He does so for our own good. Only a foolish man would ignore what the infinite wisdom of God chooses to reveal."

With the chastisement on the horizon, you people who know you are wrong in your hearts are crazy not to face up to this.

Luke 12:59

"I say to thee, thou shalt not go out thence, until thou pay the very last mite."

Ladislaus · « **Reply #42 on:** March 29, 2014, 04:06:30 PM »

Quote from: Ambrose

I disagree, Paul VI, John Paul II, Benedict XVI, and Francis are all destroyers.

So are you, Ambrose. You try to destroy the dogmas of the Church.

andysloan · « **Reply #43 on:** March 29, 2014, 04:07:50 PM »

To Ambrose:

St Francis speaks in the singular:

"At the time of this tribulation a man, not canonically elected, will be raised to the Pontificate, who, by his cunning, will endeavour to draw many into error and death."

Ambrose · « **Reply #44 on:** March 29, 2014, 04:08:25 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Quote from: Ambrose
I disagree, Paul VI, John Paul II, Benedict XVI, and Francis are all destroyers.

So are you, Ambrose. You try to destroy the dogmas of the Church.

No, only in the mind of one who is attacking it.