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Author Topic: Sedevacantism is the only explanation  (Read 6644 times)

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Offline Your Friend Colin

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Re: Sedevacantism is the only explanation
« Reply #135 on: November 21, 2019, 09:27:05 AM »
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  • But even if you adopt the other opinion, that he must be deposed (minsterially) by the Church, the statement that there's nothing anyone could do about it is patently false.
    As you said, Stubborn stands alone on this one.


    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    Re: Sedevacantism is the only explanation
    « Reply #136 on: November 21, 2019, 09:54:42 AM »
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  • Quote
    But Father also goes on to say that the same thing would happen even if NONE of them had been legitimate, due to "color of title".  So I hold that the material popes can continue to have a pass-through jurisdiction to the bishops based on color of title.
    The sede-privationist theory is the best attempt to try and "save" sede-vacantism, I agree. If I were forced to be a sede, I would probably hold something like it. Bp. Guerard correctly perceived that what many of the sedes of his day were saying, that none of the Cardinals, Roman clergy appointed by the recent Popes were even Cardinals or Roman clergy, would lead to the Church defecting. 

    With regard to the above, I would say, Jurisdiction could be supplied by Christ to a Catholic Anti-Pope. But it seems unlikely that it would be supplied to a non-Catholic manifest heretic, as for e.g. cuм Ex says those appointed by such will lack any authority. Fr. Gueranger, speaking of early sees that lost the Roman Catholic Faith, says they lost with this, the power to appoint Bishops as well.

    cuм Ex: "each and all of their words, deeds, actions and enactments, howsoever made, and anything whatsoever to which these may give rise, shall be without force and shall grant no stability whatsoever nor any right to anyone;"

    Archbishop Lefebvre: "They (the sedevacantists) argue further that, chosen by a heretical Pope, the great majority of the cardinals are not cardinals at all and thus lacked the authority to elect another Pope. Pope John Paul I and Pope John Paul II were thus, they say, illegitimately elected. They continue that it is inadmissible to pray for a pope who is not Pope or to have any "conversations" (like mine of November 1978 with one who has no right to the Chair of Peter"

    Fr. Gueranger: "By God's permission, the Sees of Alexandria, Antioch, Constantinople, and Jerusalem, were defiled by heresy; they became Chairs of pestilence (Ps, i. 1); and, having corrupted the faith they received from Rome, they could not transmit to others the mission they themselves had forfeited."

    Canon 4 of the Eighth Ecuмenical Council applies this to the schismatic intruder Photius, saying those elevated by him, are not really elevated: "We declare that Photius never was bishop [i.e. patriarch] nor is now and that those ordained or promoted by him may not retain the dignity to which he raised them" https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/basis/const4.asp
    "We wish also to make amends for the insults to which Your Vicar on earth and Your Priests are everywhere subjected [above all by schismatic sedevacantists - Nishant Xavier], for the profanation, by conscious neglect or Terrible Acts of Sacrilege, of the very Sacrament of Your Divine Love; and lastly for the Public Crimes of Nations who resist the Rights and The Teaching Authority of the Church which You have founded." - Act of Reparation to the Sacred Heart of Lord Jesus.


    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Sedevacantism is the only explanation
    « Reply #137 on: November 21, 2019, 10:27:36 AM »
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  • OK, Stubborn.  You stand absolutely alone on this position.  Even Salza and Siscoe would deny that "there is nothing anybody can do about it".  In fact, even S&S would categorize this as a scenario where he's deposed ipso facto due to apostasy.  So absolutely NO CATHOLIC THEOLOGIAN AGREES with what you just posted.

    It's you against the ENTIRE CATHOLIC THEOLOGICAL WORLD on this one, man.  Both Bellarmine and Cajetan and everyone in between would unite against you on this.  So even a modicuм of humility would strongly suggest that you got it wrong here.  You may want to consider going back to the drawing room here.
    S & S have no choice in the matter, no one does. You always exaggerate to the point of impossibility, then always make the same claim that no theologian agrees.  

    The fact is that "The Church" never has and never will invent a way to depose any pope under any circuмstance, that is reality. Until you accept this reality, you will remain confused. This reality is obviously too much for some people to accept, but that does not change the fact.  

    You also always completely ignore the fact that in the history of the Church, the situation we are in for the last 60 years has never happened. This only means that those theologians could only speculate about the issue, their speculations are sorely lacking - and actually have absolutely no safeguard whatsoever which would infallibly guarantee that a legitimate pope could never be deposed, either by mistake or on purpose.

    So even a modicuм of humility would strongly suggest that you got it wrong here.  You may want to consider going back to the drawing room here.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Sedevacantism is the only explanation
    « Reply #138 on: November 21, 2019, 10:31:19 AM »
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  • S & S have no choice in the matter, no one does. You always exaggerate to the point of impossibility, then always make the same claim that no theologian agrees.  

    It's not a claim, just truth.  I defy you to find ONE theologian who says that an openly apostate pope is not either ipso facto deposed or else deposable.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Sedevacantism is the only explanation
    « Reply #139 on: November 21, 2019, 10:33:50 AM »
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  • The sede-privationist theory is the best attempt to try and "save" sede-vacantism, ...

    Well, I injected the sedeprivationist comment as an aside.  What's at issue is that Father states that jurisdiction for the bishops to continue functioning as ordinaries is supplied by Christ through color of title even during a vacancy and could even be supplied through anti-popes.


    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Sedevacantism is the only explanation
    « Reply #140 on: November 21, 2019, 10:37:54 AM »
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  • It's not a claim, just truth.  I defy you to find ONE theologian who says that an openly apostate pope is not either ipso facto deposed or else deposable.
    Ipso Facto deposed yes - but that's not ours or anyone's call. Deposable, no, never has and never will happen. You have got to get over your idealistic vision that only a bad pope would be deposed. You have to accept the fact that if a pope could ever be deposed by anyone or by any means, then good popes would be deposed - this especially applies in today's liberal world.   
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Your Friend Colin

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    Re: Sedevacantism is the only explanation
    « Reply #141 on: November 21, 2019, 10:38:23 AM »
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  •  The fact is that "The Church" never has and never will invent a way to depose any pope under any circuмstance, that is reality. Until you accept this reality, you will remain confused. This reality is obviously too much for some people to accept, but that does not change the fact.  

    This only means that those theologians could only speculate about the issue, their speculations are sorely lacking - and actually have absolutely no safeguard whatsoever which would infallibly guarantee that a legitimate pope could never be deposed, either by mistake or on purpose.
    Stubborn, there is no way to depose a legitimate Pope (why would we want to do that anyway?). The Holy See is judged by no one (which refutes R&R). But if the Pope becomes a heretic, he can be deposed because he is no longer Pope and can be judged by men.

    Stubborn, you are clearly the confused one. You are saying that the Vicar OF Christ can be a public apostate (Bergoglio) - THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE. When I first came on this forum you were one of the persons I looked to for information. Relying on you for sound Catholic doctrine was not prudent. It only added to my already intense confusion. 

    Are you really saying that the men (Saints and Doctors!) who wrestled with these issues didn't know what they were talking about? Yes, they do have a safeguard. The Church allows theologians to teach and she approves of their teaching by direct or tacit approval. 

    Here you go again with the "if it's not infallible, I don't have to believe it" shtick. 

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Sedevacantism is the only explanation
    « Reply #142 on: November 21, 2019, 11:40:54 AM »
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  • Ipso Facto deposed yes - but that's not ours or anyone's call. Deposable, no, never has and never will happen. You have got to get over your idealistic vision that only a bad pope would be deposed. You have to accept the fact that if a pope could ever be deposed by anyone or by any means, then good popes would be deposed - this especially applies in today's liberal world.  

    I suppose that every single theologian in the history of the Church simply missed this problem.


    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Sedevacantism is the only explanation
    « Reply #143 on: November 21, 2019, 11:49:12 AM »
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  • Stubborn, there is no way to depose a legitimate Pope (why would we want to do that anyway?). The Holy See is judged by no one (which refutes R&R). But if the Pope becomes a heretic, he can be deposed because he is no longer Pope and can be judged by men.
    The problem is that the immovable foundation of sedesim is that the pope is not the pope. All ideas arise and revert to this foundation always.

    If no one can judge the pope, then who judges him a heretic? that he is no longer be pope? prior to him being able to be judged by men?



    Quote
    Stubborn, you are clearly the confused one. You are saying that the Vicar OF Christ can be a public apostate (Bergoglio) - THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE. When I first came on this forum you were one of the persons I looked to for information. Relying on you for sound Catholic doctrine was not prudent. It only added to my already intense confusion.
    It is only impossible when your foundation is as I stated above. When you consistently reject reality, confusion will always be  the result.


    Quote
    Are you really saying that the men (Saints and Doctors!) who wrestled with these issues didn't know what they were talking about? Yes, they do have a safeguard. The Church allows theologians to teach and she approves of their teaching by direct or tacit approval.
    That is no safeguard, you have no idea what you're talking about. The Church is the one who teaches, and She will encourage theologians to speculate and teach truths the Church has always taught. If and when She deems it necessary, She will step in and settle the matter via Council or encyclical or ex cathedra pronouncement. 

    But whenever theologians say things like; "if "X" were to happen, then...." or "If the pope were to...." or say things along those lines, (which are basically things that have never happened before), that is only their opinion and nothing more. Their speculations may or may not be true - when it comes to speculations, everyone knows you can find gold as well as tin. This is Catholicism 101.



    Quote
    Here you go again with the "if it's not infallible, I don't have to believe it" shtick.
    As I replied to your OP here, this is false.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Sedevacantism is the only explanation
    « Reply #144 on: November 21, 2019, 11:50:27 AM »
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  • I suppose that every single theologian in the history of the Church simply missed this problem.
    You can suppose whatever you want - currently, against reality and good reason, you suppose a pope, good or bad, can be deposed.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Your Friend Colin

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    Re: Sedevacantism is the only explanation
    « Reply #145 on: November 21, 2019, 12:06:15 PM »
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  • The problem is that the immovable foundation of sedesim is that the pope is not the pope. All ideas arise and revert to this foundation always.

    If no one can judge the pope, then who judges him a heretic? that he is no longer be pope? prior to him being able to be judged by men?


    It is only impossible when your foundation is as I stated above. When you consistently reject reality, confusion will always be  the result.

    That is no safeguard, you have no idea what you're talking about. The Church is the one who teaches, and She will encourage theologians to speculate and teach truths the Church has always taught. If and when She deems it necessary, She will step in and settle the matter via Council or encyclical or ex cathedra pronouncement.  

    But whenever theologians say things like; "if "X" were to happen, then...." or "If the pope were to...." or say things along those lines, (which are basically things that have never happened before), that is only their opinion and nothing more. Their speculations may or may not be true - when it comes to speculations, everyone knows you can find gold as well as tin. This is Catholicism 101.


    As I replied to your OP here, this is false.
    Stubborn, it is apparent you simply don't understand the Church's teaching on the Papacy or Magisterium.
    This is Econian ecclesiology you're regurgitating, not Catholic ecclesiology. 


    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Sedevacantism is the only explanation
    « Reply #146 on: November 21, 2019, 12:28:45 PM »
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  • Stubborn, it is apparent you simply don't understand the Church's teaching on the Papacy or Magisterium.
    This is Econian ecclesiology you're regurgitating, not Catholic ecclesiology.
    Colin, I am not confused. If you think I am, if you believe what I wrote is not Catholic, please know that you are listening to the wrong people and reading from wrong sources, iow, whatever it is that you are learning, you are not learning the true faith. What I wrote is entirely Catholic, there is nothing at all complicated about any of it.  

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Your Friend Colin

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    Re: Sedevacantism is the only explanation
    « Reply #147 on: November 21, 2019, 12:33:38 PM »
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  • Colin, I am not confused. If you think I am, if you believe what I wrote is not Catholic, please know that you are listening to the wrong people and reading from wrong sources, iow, whatever it is that you are learning, you are not learning the true faith. What I wrote is entirely Catholic, there is nothing at all complicated about any of it.  
    “Fr.” Gregory Hesse is not a reliable source of information.


    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Sedevacantism is the only explanation
    « Reply #148 on: November 21, 2019, 12:41:45 PM »
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  • “Fr.” Gregory Hesse is not a reliable source of information.
    You can never prove that far as I know. I have listened to dozens of his talks, many hours worth and have not heard him preach anything that was not wholly Catholic.  

    Also, you saying so is only calumniation without proof - even if you're right.  
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Your Friend Colin

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    Re: Sedevacantism is the only explanation
    « Reply #149 on: November 21, 2019, 12:48:47 PM »
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  • You can never prove that far as I know. I have listened to dozens of his talks, many hours worth and have not heard him preach anything that was not wholly Catholic.  

    Also, you saying so is only calumniation without proof - even if you're right.  
    Hesse says that the definition of schism is the denial that the Roman Pontiff has the authority to command something.

    No, that’s heresy.

    Schism is refusal of submission to the teachings and commands of the Roman Pontiff.

    With his made up definition of schism, he was able to justify his schismatic actions as “disobedience”.

    There. Hesse is not a reliable source of Catholic doctrine. He literally fabricated his own definition of schism.