Author Topic: Sedevacantism is schismatic (Read 27744 times)

LaramieHirsch · « **on:** September 27, 2013, 12:38:34 AM »

Quote from: Mithrandylan

No wonder you didn't write it in here...

Okay. Allow me to remedy this.

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(From: http://thehirschfiles.blogspot.com/)

Wednesday, September 25, 2013

Sedevacantism: Part 2

This evening, I heard something insightful:

(http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20070422-Contra-Sedevacantism-and-the-Recent-Docuмent-on-Limbo.html).

When Christ was on Earth in his final mortal hours, if one had seen Him getting beaten, mocked, and dangling from a Roman cross, there'd be the impression that Jesus was a pathetic, withered, earthly man in the middle of a horrible episode of suffering at the end of his mortal life. He did not appear to be God. And most in the crowd did not acknowledge that this was God on Earth. Christ did not look like God on Earth in those moments. So people went forward with mocking him, asking for his suffering and death, jeering and shouting.

Now we see the Church is in the same situation. She is bloodied. She is suffering. People mock Her and ask for Her suffering and death. The faithless jeer and ridicule the Church. People do not recognize the Church as God's Institution on Earth. And so, we have a large set of people who are missing the point entirely.

Christ wanted His followers near Him in those horrible final hours. Yet, they were not there with Him.

How many times have you said to yourself: "If I could go back in time, I would have been with Jesus until the bitter end."

Well, now the Holy Spirit desires our presence with the Catholic Church of God in these horrible (and possibly final) hours. Shall it be that here, too, God will be abandoned once again?

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I will further add the following thought, which I have posted elsewhere:

It occurs to me that I'll be offending people I know online and whom I respect. But I believe in what I am saying. I must proclaim it. I must put it on the table so that it is clear where I stand.

(And, I apologize for the brief replies and entries. I'm unable to post prolifically any longer.)

I am not yet attempting to insult individuals. I'm being sincere, here.

My qualm is with the idea of sedevacantism. Not individual people. Not yet, anyway.

Okay...

Again, I'm saying that sedevacantism is a schism. The Chair of Peter is NOT empty. There have been men with the authority of the Vicar of Christ in the Vatican since 1968. This is just a new form of division that Satan is enacting in our battered and bloodied Church.

Furthermore, I have a prediction. That prediction:

Sedevacantism will never ever go away. It will linger in existence until the return of Jesus Christ. Further, sedevacantists will grow in their hatred for the True Church as the decades roll by. The very mention of the Catholic Church will cause instantaneous scoffing, eye rolling, and sneering.

Loyal sedevacantist followers will never be satisfied. There will never be anyone arising from anywhere to do anything they want. Ever. If the pope is fake, and if the cardinals are wrong, and the bishops are corrupt, then just where is a legitimate pope supposed to arise from?

Another prediction: sedevacantism will grow in its members. You can look forward to many societies, clubs, conferences, and publications. The Devil likes to have as many opposition groups against the Universal Church of God as possible. There will be people who convert directly into sedevacantism without ever having sworn any kind of fealty to the Mother Church. Because the idea of being in opposition to the big bad loony popes of old will be an attractive prospect, courtesy of our anti-Christian media.

In a hundred years or more--if the world lasts that long--sedevacantists will still be around enjoying the same status as Eastern Orthodox. Meanwhile, the real news will be what is happening in the Catholic Church that the sedes departed from.

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This is where Laramie Hirsch stands.

What needs to happen, is that such people need to re-join the Church and utilize their talents to restore the Church from the madness she finds herself in.

John · « **Reply #1 on:** September 27, 2013, 01:25:23 AM »

Silly and romantic emotionalism from you!!! Probably the most feminist and ridiculous post I"ve ever seen on this website!!

The people who are mocking and calling for the church's death are Francis and the apostates of Assisi 1, 2 and 3... the ones who claim Jєωs need not be converted, the ones who claim Christ never descended into Hell or resurrected! The ones who have gotten rid of penance and claim everyone goes to heaven.

they are the ones who have abandoned Christ!!! They have overturned the Holy dogmas and doctrines of the Church, have reversed the stand of the Church on divorce(annulments) and made a mockery of the deaths of countless hundreds of thousands of martyrs who would rather DIE than compromise one word!

you think sedevacantists hate the church while you claim to love it? You are delusional and in a dream world! You must either have never read anything sedevacantist Bishops have said or you are attention deficit disorder?

Satan has entered by opening the windows to the protestants and masons and selling Christ out for cow dung and worldly honors!

Pray to St.Athanasius

I will sincerely pray that the veil is lifted from your heart!

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #2 on:** September 27, 2013, 05:46:54 AM »

While I understand where the initial post comes from his analogy fails.

For his analogy to be correct he would have to speak of a man who claimed to be Christ and walked the teaching truth and doing good until near they end when all of a sudden he, or someone who liked just like him who claimed to be the same person, started preaching heresy and doing evil such a worshiping with heretics and encouraging others to do the same.

As recently as the early 2000' when I was debating someone open to SV, I was defending the NO Church at the time. I told him you have problems with everyone even JP2, Mother Theresa and not even Ratzinger is orthodox in your opinion. No one can do any good in your eyes.

Then I read Ratzinger. Ooops. :roll-laugh1:

You are probably quite sincere as I was when I defended the NO. But you do not have an accurate view of the entire picture. Keep a humble and sincere heart, pray and stay clear of mortal, read and detach yourself from venial sin and the truth will find you. The Catholic Church of 1955 and the Novus Ordo Church of 2013 are two distinct entities. The Catholic Church of 2013 and the Novus Ordo Church of 2013 are two distinct entities. Stay away from the serpent, its bite is mortal.

Mabel · « **Reply #3 on:** September 27, 2013, 10:43:08 AM »

I'm sorry but I must have missed the arguement for Catholics holding the sedevacantist position being in schism.

The paragraphs presented as some kind of arguement are just sentiments and feelings.

1. The state of sede vacate will end. Just because no one knows how or when, doesn't mean it cannot be true. I believe the case for loss of office has been well put forth. Maybe you should consider reading up on Bellarmine?

2. Can you define "loyal sedevacantist followers"? Loyal empty chair followers? Are you saying there are people following an empty chair?

We are just Catholics, we can't go to our local church or submit to the man claiming to be our ordinary. We are not following anyone or any thing, and we've remained loyal to the Petrine office. Are you saying the typical Novus Ordoite who casts off Mortalium Animos or Castii Connubi is in union with the Catholic Church though they utterly reject papal teaching?

At least a few legitimate ways to elect a pope have been discussed on this forum and elsewhere. You haven't read or understood any of them, have you? Obviously not, as I don't think you would have made such an accusation. The requirements to satisfy and rectify the situation are minimal but they cannot be set into motion by us lay Catholics, we are not in control here.

I can speak for a good number of sedes, maybe not all, but we are patiently waiting and praying for God to do as He Wills in regards to the papacy. We have no desire to cut ourselves off from other Catholics or to resist the legitimate authority of the Church. We don't deny that we are in communion with other Catholics who don't agree with us. I'm not seeing the schism here.

3. Many Catholics are waking up and refusing to serve the occupant of Rome, Bergolio. He forced them to do so, he is the one forcing them into the sede position. People are realizing that they cannot reconcile the two churches, the Vatican 2 church and the real Catholic Church.

I think you are looking at the schism from the wrong way. It is the false church that is in schism, they are the majority. We few are a faithful remnant, they are the ones who have broken communion with the faithful Catholics.

I know im probably wasting my time here but I really suggest you learn more about the sede position from sede vacantist before you make such statements that demonstrate your ignorance on the subject.

Charlemagne · « **Reply #4 on:** September 27, 2013, 01:09:11 PM »

If sedeplenists recognize Francis as Pope yet refuse to follow him and recognize his papal prerogatives, THEY are the schismatics. If Francis' canon law states that you must attend Mass on Sundays and Holydays of obligation under pain of mortal sin, for example, and you have no access to a True Mass yet refuse to attend an available NOM, YOU are the schismatic. Some sedeplenists love to accuse sedes of declaring the seat vacant without any authority to do so. Fair enough. However, what, exactly, gives sedeplenists the authority to declare the NOM invalid? Laramie, if you had no access to the True Mass but a NOM was available one mile away, what would you do on Sundays and Holydays?

If Francis is Pope, you follow his directives without question. Sedes, however, don't recognize Francis as Pope and therefore, logically, refuse to follow him - in anything. They don't pick and choose, a la "Cafeteria Catholicism," what to accept and what to refuse. With all respect, you espouse a twisted, schizophrenic theology, Laramie - and you further prove that anyone with a keyboard and internet connection can have a blog.

Capt McQuigg · « **Reply #5 on:** September 27, 2013, 02:17:53 PM »

All of the church's current struggles and punishments are entirely self-inflicted.

Did the church's enemies force the church to allow pedophile priests to continue doing what they were doing?

Did the church's enemies make people like Robert Weakland, and Roger Mahony into, respectively, an Archbishop and a Cardinal?

Did the church's enemies change the mass, rendering it indistinguishable from lutheran service?

Did the enemies of the church change all seven sacraments and even change the rites of ordination and consecration?

Did the enemies of the church suppress all minor and major orders?

Did the enemies of the church change the translations of the Holy Bible so that it could be used by protestants and watered down catholics alike? As Paul VI openly says in the introduction to the NAB?

Did the enemies of the church force the church to start publicly proclaiming that muslims worship the same God and that Jєωs do not need to convert?

Did the enemies of the church force the leaders of the church to espouse ecuмenism and even declare publicly that ecuмenism of return is no now longer necessary because the last council did away with it (as Cardinal Kasper said in public)?

No, the post-vatican II popes promulgated these changes.

By the way, what suffering is the church going through today? The Pope is celebrated in mainstream media outlets everywhere! Conciliarists in the U.S. and throughout most of the free world can attend their little buildings in peace, physical peace because if they had any love of God the spiritual peace would evade them.

Sedevacantism would be an act of schism, pre-Vatican II. I can't see how holding on to the traditions of the Catholic Church would be considered schismatic unless the Catholic Church stopped being the Catholic Church. Did it?

2Vermont · « **Reply #6 on:** September 27, 2013, 04:19:35 PM »

Quote from: Charlemagne

Laramie, if you had no access to the True Mass but a NOM was available one mile away, what would you do on Sundays and Holydays?

I wouldn't hold your breath for an answer...at least not a direct one.

2Vermont · « **Reply #7 on:** September 27, 2013, 05:01:00 PM »

Quote from: Lover of Truth

You are probably quite sincere as I was when I defended the NO. But you do not have an accurate view of the entire picture. Keep a humble and sincere heart, pray and stay clear of mortal, read and detach yourself from venial sin and the truth will find you. The Catholic Church of 1955 and the Novus Ordo Church of 2013 are two distinct entities. The Catholic Church of 2013 and the Novus Ordo Church of 2013 are two distinct entities. Stay away from the serpent, its bite is mortal.

Yes! I was an ardent NO defender as well.

LaramieHirsch · « **Reply #8 on:** September 27, 2013, 06:06:49 PM »

Quote from: 2Vermont

Quote from: Charlemagne
Laramie, if you had no access to the True Mass but a NOM was available one mile away, what would you do on Sundays and Holydays?

I wouldn't hold your breath for an answer...at least not a direct one.

There's not a time limit, here. I've been busy this week. Lots of replies, lots of real life tasks. Plus, I work a lot these days.

reconquest · « **Reply #9 on:** September 27, 2013, 08:01:36 PM »

Quote from: LaramieHirsch

Quote from: 2Vermont
Quote from: Charlemagne
Laramie, if you had no access to the True Mass but a NOM was available one mile away, what would you do on Sundays and Holydays?

I wouldn't hold your breath for an answer...at least not a direct one.

There's not a time limit, here. I've been busy this week. Lots of replies, lots of real life tasks. Plus, I work a lot these days.

I think that's the sort of answer 2Vermont was expecting.

LaramieHirsch · « **Reply #10 on:** September 27, 2013, 08:26:42 PM »

Quote from: reconquest

Quote from: LaramieHirsch
Quote from: 2Vermont
Quote from: Charlemagne
Laramie, if you had no access to the True Mass but a NOM was available one mile away, what would you do on Sundays and Holydays?

I wouldn't hold your breath for an answer...at least not a direct one.

There's not a time limit, here. I've been busy this week. Lots of replies, lots of real life tasks. Plus, I work a lot these days.

I think that's the sort of answer 2Vermont was expecting.

Oh! Reconquest! You're so clever! Couldn't get anything past you!

I would attend the completely valid and quite inferior Novus Ordo Mass, where I would recieve the Real Presence, given to us by our Lord, Jesus Christ.

Lunch break over.

Mithrandylan · « **Reply #11 on:** September 27, 2013, 08:56:08 PM »

Laramie, you have lots of time until you are called to make account for your ridiculous and effeminate musings on things you seem to know nothing about.

What's the word for that? Oh, convenient.

LaramieHirsch · « **Reply #12 on:** September 27, 2013, 10:00:22 PM »

Quote from: Mithrandylan

Laramie, you have lots of time until you are called to make account for your ridiculous and effeminate musings on things you seem to know nothing about.

What's the word for that? Oh, convenient.

Mith, I've always enjoyed your posts in the past. I've always felt like I could get along with you before.

But now, you're bein' a jerk. :smile:

What is wrong with you? You can't separate an idea from the person? No damned wonder you got banned.

I'm doin' my best to keep the focus on the topic. But if you wanna go this route and start demonizing, you can just kiss my ass.

It's a shame. You were the one who inspired me to make a separate thread where people could focus all their "love they enemy" energy. Since I'm an enemy now, and all.

Mithrandylan · « **Reply #13 on:** September 27, 2013, 10:12:50 PM »

Laramie, you're not an enemy. You're just saying some really silly things, and I think they're indicative of you not grasping this issue. What makes it more frustrating is that you have been offered explanations and articles, but you show little interest or ability in understanding the errors in what you're saying. Whether or not we get along is immaterial, I'm sure if I met you on the street I'd shake your hand and make a stupid comment about the weather-- this has nothing to do with the issue. If anyone should be offended, it should be the traditional Catholics you've maligned as having left the Church and deserted Christ at His Passion.

LaramieHirsch · « **Reply #14 on:** September 27, 2013, 10:26:00 PM »

Just hang tight. Unable to talk right now.