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Author Topic: Sedevacantism & Converts  (Read 1190 times)

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Offline AspiringToHeaven

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Sedevacantism & Converts
« on: July 23, 2021, 06:37:21 PM »
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  • Is it easier for converts to accept the hard reality of sedevacantism? It seems so to me.

    Unlike cradle Catholics, we’re unburdened by any sentimental attachment to those postconciliar wretches who—however heretical and/or apostate—most cradle Catholics nevertheless view as popes. For example, we didn’t grow up seeing their vile faces in the vestibule and thus cultivating any sense of loyalty to these scuмbags. (By the way, vastly underrated is the damage done by reverently hanging the pictures of these swine in vestibules, especially in vestibules where practical sedevacantism is embraced while vocally preaching against sedevacantism; not only does it create at least a trace of sentimental attachment to these pigs, but it also spawns a kind of painful schizophrenia.) 

    It is, in part, precisely because I love the papacy that I’ve embraced sedevacantism. The postconciliar pigs cannot possibly be the true occupants of this most exalted of all offices. True fathers do not feed their children stones rather than bread. We’ve been assured of that. And of course, by their fruits ye shall know them. We’ve also been assured of that. 

    The love of cradle Catholics for the papacy seems to have been fatally eroded by the demonic examples of the postconciliar “popes.” (Love diminished also by their selective obedience). Hence they believe that the office can be held even by diabolical degenerates spewing heresy every day. Hence it’s hard for them to accept the hard reality of sedevacantism. 

    Anyway, what do you think? Is it easier for converts to accept the hard reality of sedevacantism? 

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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Sedevacantism & Converts
    « Reply #1 on: July 23, 2021, 06:40:34 PM »
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  • Well, I'm a convert to Catholicism, but not a convert to sedevacantism. IMO, the Papacy needs to be respected, even when the occupant is a heretic. If we ditch the Pope, it's difficult to go back even when a good Pope is elected, because we will be so used to not needing a pope, and we will scrutinize everything he does, minutely looking for something wrong.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Sedevacantism & Converts
    « Reply #2 on: July 23, 2021, 06:48:45 PM »
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  • I'm also a convert and do not accept sedevacantism.

    But I find that I have less emotional reaction to the position then a lot of both diocesan and R&R types.




    Offline Meg

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    Re: Sedevacantism & Converts
    « Reply #3 on: July 23, 2021, 06:51:01 PM »
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  • I'm also a convert and do not accept sedevacantism.

    But I find that I have less emotional reaction to the position then a lot of both diocesan and R&R types.

    May I ask what type you are, exactly?
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline AMDGJMJ

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    Re: Sedevacantism & Converts
    « Reply #4 on: July 23, 2021, 06:52:12 PM »
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  • Is it easier for converts to accept the hard reality of sedevacantism? It seems so to me.

    Unlike cradle Catholics, we’re unburdened by any sentimental attachment to those postconciliar wretches who—however heretical and/or apostate—most cradle Catholics nevertheless view as popes. For example, we didn’t grow up seeing their vile faces in the vestibule and thus cultivating any sense of loyalty to these scuмbags. (By the way, vastly underrated is the damage done by reverently hanging the pictures of these swine in vestibules, especially in vestibules where practical sedevacantism is embraced while vocally preaching against sedevacantism; not only does it create at least a trace of sentimental attachment to these pigs, but it also spawns a kind of painful schizophrenia.)

    It is, in part, precisely because I love the papacy that I’ve embraced sedevacantism. The postconciliar pigs cannot possibly be the true occupants of this most exalted of all offices. True fathers do not feed their children stones rather than bread. We’ve been assured of that. And of course, by their fruits ye shall know them. We’ve also been assured of that.

    The love of cradle Catholics for the papacy seems to have been fatally eroded by the demonic examples of the postconciliar “popes.” (Love diminished also by their selective obedience). Hence they believe that the office can be held even by diabolical degenerates spewing heresy every day. Hence it’s hard for them to accept the hard reality of sedevacantism.

    Anyway, what do you think? Is it easier for converts to accept the hard reality of sedevacantism?
    In short...  Yes!  Many people whom I have known to become full traditional Catholics from Atheism or Protestantism often find sedevacantism the best way to explain the crisis in the Church.  
    That being said...  With a shortage of sede priests many people who hold the sede position have no choice but to go to a different option or not at all.
    I remember after King Kigeli's requiem Mass that there was a man who had come to it and said he was the only traditional Catholic left living in Rwanda!  How blessed most of us are to have any Mass at all!  Imagine being the only one in your whole country...  😣
    How long have you been a traditional Catholic?  What were you before?  🙃
    I grew up novus ordo/Byzantine.  Being a full traditional Catholic was in the eyes of my family like leaving the church.  😩
    I do remember though that the "Can a pope be a heretic?" was still the lynchpin for me.
    "Jesus, Meek and Humble of Heart, make my heart like unto Thine!"

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    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Sedevacantism & Converts
    « Reply #5 on: July 23, 2021, 06:56:25 PM »
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  • May I ask what type you are, exactly?
    I go to SSPX. I would consider myself R&R in general terms. I like trad clergy across the spectrum, including some indult priests, but I think it's for the best for all of us in the long run if the rug is pulled out from the indult.  I would not have any issue with attending a resistance chapel if that was around instead of SSPX.  I generally subscribe to tradcuмenism 

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Sedevacantism & Converts
    « Reply #6 on: July 23, 2021, 07:02:45 PM »
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  • I'm a cradle NO and I lean towards sedevacantism(I see a few seemingly irreconcilable problems with it, but I see those with every position), but from my biased perspective I think any assertion of "converts know better" is a risky one. A convert will inherently have a worse sensus Catholicus than a cradle Catholic, just as I as someone raised in the NO almost certainly has a worse one than a born-and-raised Trad. I think it's a dangerous game for converts to suggest they know better because they are converts. It's like saying naturalised Americans understand America better than people born and raised there--a ridiculous proposition. While a naturalised citizen might have studied a lot of details for their citizenship test that a born American never did, the born American will still have a far greater sense of what it is to be American than the immigrant. Same certainly applies for the vast majority of cases of cradle Trad vs convertee Trad.

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Sedevacantism & Converts
    « Reply #7 on: July 23, 2021, 07:04:34 PM »
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  • I wouldn't say it's necessarily "easy" because you have to first learn to recognize what true Catholicism looks like. I converted from some form of neo-paganism after years of atheism and was Novus Ordo initially. It took me about a year after I was baptized to finally attend diocesan TLM, and another six months until I went SSPX. Sedevacantism came over the past 9-10 months once I could no longer reconcile the indefectibility of the Church with what was purported to be "Catholicism" of the Novus Ordo.

    That said, I wouldn't call it a conversion "to" sedevacantism, because that implies it is somehow distinct from Catholicism, when it is really a position for addressing the Crisis.

    That said, I don't have the option of a sede chapel nearby, so I attend SSPX because the sacraments are undoubtedly valid.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]


    Offline bodeens

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    Re: Sedevacantism & Converts
    « Reply #8 on: July 23, 2021, 07:47:10 PM »
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  • I wanted to convert to Catholicism but I could not reconcile Vatican II at all and started researching sedevacantism. It was the only way things could possibly make sense, Vatican II is undoubtedly turning souls away from even looking into Catholicism. I think this is the design of that "council". The more you delve into Church history the more you feel alienated, you have to accept that history starts in the 60s if you go NO. 
    Regard all of my posts as unfounded slander, heresy, theologically specious etc
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    Online Nadir

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    Re: Sedevacantism & Converts
    « Reply #9 on: July 23, 2021, 08:37:55 PM »
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  • This is a very interesting survey of sorts. So far we have five convert posters and two born NO posters.

    I don’t fit these categories, being born and raised totally within the true Catholic faith, (not in a traditional sect - I dont use the word perjoratively) indeed a blessing and of course there are fewer of us as time goes on.

    I have never defined my beliefs about recent popes, except to say that it is not my business to do so, and even less so publicly. It might be because I am more secure in my faith because of my very stable background.

    I hope to make another comment on the OP but have not time right now.
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    Offline AspiringToHeaven

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    Re: Sedevacantism & Converts
    « Reply #10 on: July 23, 2021, 08:49:12 PM »
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  • Was trying to add the following to my original post:

    “Mommy, why is there a picture of that horrible man here in the vestibule? You, Daddy, and Father have called him a total Modernist and thus the embodiment of all heresies!”
    -I identify as masked and vaxxed. 
    -Slavish fear is the deadliest virus. 
    -“For God hath not given us the spirit of fear: but of power, and of love, and of sobriety.” (2 Tim. 1:7)


    Offline LeDeg

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    Re: Sedevacantism & Converts
    « Reply #11 on: July 23, 2021, 09:11:43 PM »
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  • I converted about 10 years through the NO, but quickly realized something was wrong and then came to Tradition. Went to an FSSP parish for 2 years and realized it was an impotent half measure at best and then went to the SSPX which is where I am now. I lean sede, but I am not dogmatic about it. 
    "You must train harder than the enemy who is trying to kill you. You will get all the rest you need in the grave."- Leon Degrelle

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Sedevacantism & Converts
    « Reply #12 on: July 23, 2021, 09:18:28 PM »
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  • I lean sede, but I am not dogmatic about it.
    Despite what some will tell you, there's no dogmatic precedent for it, same with the "non una cuм" issue. It's all theological opinion at this point until a true Pope defines it.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Sedevacantism & Converts
    « Reply #13 on: July 23, 2021, 09:35:48 PM »
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  • Despite what some will tell you, there's no dogmatic precedent for it, same with the "non una cuм" issue. It's all theological opinion at this point until a true Pope defines it.
    Yes AND it is equally true that "there's no dogmatic precedent for [Bergoglio is definitely the Pope]. It's all theological opinion at this point until a true Pope defines it."

    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Sedevacantism & Converts
    « Reply #14 on: July 23, 2021, 09:41:47 PM »
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  • Is it easier for converts to accept the hard reality of sedevacantism? It seems so to me.
    Not having to submit to a pope can sometimes appeal to a Protestant, but that may lead to Roman Protestantism.

    Not saying it's common but I've seen it happen.