Author Topic: Sedevacantism and the annulment fiasco.  (Read 2430 times)

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Offline Jehanne

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Sedevacantism and the annulment fiasco.
« on: October 25, 2013, 09:05:06 AM »
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  • If sedevacantism (a position which I hold to) is, in fact, the true and correct position, what are the ramifications for those who have had their marriages "annulled" by the post-conciliar Church?  Could it be that those "annulments" are, in fact, entirely invalid and devoid of any meaning, somewhat like the post-conciliar "canonizations"?  And, if someone got his/her marriage "annulled", remarried, and years later, embraced the sedevacantist position, then what?  Should they leave their present civil spouse and try to return to their former and true spouse, the one which they civilly divorced?  What if they became truly convinced that their supposed "annulment" was, in fact, not a true annulment?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Sedevacantism and the annulment fiasco.
    « Reply #1 on: October 25, 2013, 09:18:45 AM »
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  • Even if you're NOT a sedevacantist I think that most Novus Ordo annulments are worth next-to-nothing; they're rubberstamped Novus Ordo divorces anymore.

    Remember that the Church doesn't and CANNOT annul anything; it only makes an authoritative declaration regarding the fact that a marriage never happened ... so that people can act in good conscience to, for instance, get married due to confidence in the Church's judgment on the matter.  Unfortunately, whether these folks have no authority at all (sedevacantism) or whether they've destroyed the process so that one can no longer have any confidence in it (Novus Ordo sedeplenism), the end result is the same, that Novus Ordo annulment declarations have in themselves no value for the sake of informing consciences.

    So, for instance, the SSPX has a group that examines NO annulments and second-guesses them, making their own determination regarding their probable validity.  Unfortunately, such a decision really does not have any weight to bind consciences.


    Offline Mabel

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    Sedevacantism and the annulment fiasco.
    « Reply #2 on: October 25, 2013, 09:29:16 AM »
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  • No, we don't recognize NO annulments. However, given the situation and the state of the Church, it is probably better to worry about this only regarding yourself and deal with people who aren't  knowingly trying to do wrong in a charitable but distant manner.

    I know of two traditional Catholics who were both annulled in the NO. They came into tradition much later in life, after their many children were teens and adults. It wasn't feasible to split the home so they live as brother and sister.

    I even knew a man in the NO who had a conversion later in life and slept on the floor, secretly, so as not to confuse his small children, once he discovered and repented for his wrongdoing.

    Besides all of this, talk things over with different traditional priests, it will give you a clearer picture of the situation.

    Offline TKGS

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    Sedevacantism and the annulment fiasco.
    « Reply #3 on: October 25, 2013, 09:52:18 AM »
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  • Mabel has, I think, the right approach on this matter.  The annulment situation in the Conciliar sect truly is a fiasco and I find it extremely difficult to believe that there are truly more than a few handfuls of actual invalid marriages in any given year.  The fact is that a valid marriage is extremely easy to contract and humans have been validly doing so for thousands of years.

    The annulment process is not there to fix "unhappy marriages" but that is what the Conciliar sect uses it for.  They don't even attempt to reconcile spouses and, indeed, require that civil divorces precede the application.  

    It is very unfortunate that many people have to suffer through divorces and through situations Mabel describes.  But sin carries consequences and some of those consequences are harder than others depending upon the sins committed.  

    In any event, I don't think it wise for traditional Catholics to pass judgment upon any individual case and each situation should be judged by the individuals and their confessors on its own merits and we should not assume the worse in any particular person.

    P.S.  The sedevacantist issue really is not applicable to this problem.  The problem exists whether the sedevacantist thesis is correct or not.

    Offline songbird

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    Sedevacantism and the annulment fiasco.
    « Reply #4 on: October 25, 2013, 03:08:08 PM »
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  • I am in need of listening to about my mom.  When my dad died, 5 years later my mom is introduced to a twice divorced no religion man by her sister-in-law of a unitarian church.  This aunt, to me, was the kind that would let you know that she could be saved and that she was no different than a catholic.  So, my mom wants to marry this man knowing that there were obstacles to make it look right.  She was New Order and in 1987 a new order priest told my mom how to go about it.

    1) Priest said, go to a minister and have your marriage blessed. (He meant, go and get married in front of someone else other than a new order priest)

    2) And the Priest will see about annulling the 2 divorces of this man.

    3) my mom was told she can not receive any sacraments until the annulment is done.  Then she goes to confession, (sorry for what, should be for getting married outside the church)

    4) Then this man becomes baptized and I marry you both.

    Now, question, is this rigged?  I say yes!  My mother marries this man in my aunt's home by her minister and to add salt to the wound, my brother marries with them his girlfriend.  A double ring ceremony, as they say.

    It took me awhile to see that this was all wrong.  When I did see it, being traditional, I told my mom and my siblings and I got hate in my face.  

    I got a letter today from my sister that she never wants to speak to me again, til I apologize to mom and so-called step dad.  Apologize?  What did I do so wrong?  I didn't accept what happened.  I don't see my mom's confession as sorrow for marrying in front of a minister.  

    My mom told me the step-by-step procedure to get what she wanted.  I asked my mom, what day did you marry in the church.  She said she does not recall.  They have celebrated their anniversary  for over 25 years on the day of marrying in front of a minister.

    I told our children, that this marriage never took place in the eyes of God and this man is not your step Grandpa.  

    So, the end result of my mom's scandal is the whole family against me.  That is 8  of my siblings.  My mother is 82.  Our last conversation ended with her hanging up on me.  We were talking about the changes in the church and how my mom sees the homosexuals as children of God.  I told my mom, you have changed mom.  You never taught your children these things. and she hung up.

    So, any reply to this is very welcomed.


    Offline songbird

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    Sedevacantism and the annulment fiasco.
    « Reply #5 on: October 25, 2013, 03:10:11 PM »
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  • Oh, the annulments were for the reason: That he did not know divorce was wrong.

    My thoughts: If he knows now, then he should not marry my mom.

    Offline Matto

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    Sedevacantism and the annulment fiasco.
    « Reply #6 on: October 25, 2013, 03:22:49 PM »
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  • No matter how you see it there is a grave problem. Either a vast number of marriages are invalid, or a vast number of annulments are invalid. I believe it is the latter, and that many many people who are in valid marriages are getting bogus annulments. If I was a priest I would not want to give the sacraments to people who received Novus Ordo annulments and remarried.
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    Offline TKGS

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    Sedevacantism and the annulment fiasco.
    « Reply #7 on: October 25, 2013, 04:15:24 PM »
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  • Quote from: songbird
    So, any reply to this is very welcomed.


    I am truly sorry for what you are going through.  The only way for you to have any sort of relationship with your family members is to ignore the reality of the situation.  This is exactly what I meant when I said above that sin has consequences.  I have many relations who are in very similar circumstances.  I accept the reality of the situation but my wife and children and I simply do not have much contact with any of our relations other than the Christmas card we send to them each year (though I won't pretend that we would have much of a relationship with them even if there were not multiple divorces all around us, we live far from any of our relations on either side of the family).

    My children know that there are many moral problems in our extended families and they pray for them.  Other than that, our contact is...as I said, nothing.  

    The situation did not change when we found tradition other than the fact that our relations do know that we do not approve of the various situations.  I will note, however, that those involved in all these various situations know that their situations have moral consequences and it has not been because I or anyone in my family have told them.  I believe it is probably the same with your relations.

    My advice is to pray and offer your sacrifices for them.  Perhaps they will, one day, soften their hearts and repent of their public sins and you may have a merry time with them in heaven.  But you certainly do not wish to follow them into hell just for the sake of fellowship.


    Offline songbird

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    Sedevacantism and the annulment fiasco.
    « Reply #8 on: October 25, 2013, 05:00:32 PM »
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  • Thank you for your reply.  All that you said is true.

    Offline ThomisticPhilosopher

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    Sedevacantism and the annulment fiasco.
    « Reply #9 on: October 28, 2013, 04:13:26 PM »
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  • Quote from: songbird
    Thank you for your reply.  All that you said is true.


    Yes the best thing you can do is tell them the truth with charity. If they refuse to listen to you never close the door on them, but rather have them close it on you. Don't show any bitterness or hate towards them remember that it is the sin we hate and not the sinner. We desire that the sinner be converted and live. When it comes to parents the best thing you can do is simply keep in touch in the hopes that one day they might pour out their conscience on you in the hopes for repentance. If you never talk to them, it will do them little good as the only person that is leading them towards truth is you. No one else will have the courage to say the right thing to a sinner that is need of some fraternal correction. She attempted to in her own way, circumvent the legal system of the Novus Ordo Conciliar Church. She got away with it, and she still kept the title of a good Catholic in good standing. Some people want to play around nice with the world, and be Catholic. It simply psychologically tells them that they have a shot at being saved, but the reality is that they have 0 love for the Law of God. They have no love for Jesus, they are worse then even Judas.

    I still pray that some day my parents will marry through the Church, my Dad is a traditional Catholic, but my mother is a whole other issue. Sadly enough, whatever happened to her made her leave the faith immediately after her first Holy communion. Never again going to confession etc... So she has well over 40+ years of sins to confess to, and well the best I can do as a son is give her a testimony of what it means to be a Catholic. To show through both word/deed that I want to get to heaven, and that unless you strive towards that narrow road you shall assuredly perish. They might not listen to you right now, but God will give them the means and the opportunity to soften their heart. Just wait until she gets the news that she has cancer, and she starts reconsidering her past follies of her life. She might remember the words that you have told her. You will certainly be in my prayers, and I hope you add me to yours.

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    Offline StCeciliasGirl

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    Sedevacantism and the annulment fiasco.
    « Reply #10 on: October 29, 2013, 12:18:57 AM »
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  • Quote from: songbird
    I am in need of listening to about my mom.  When my dad died, 5 years later my mom is introduced to a twice divorced no religion man by her sister-in-law of a unitarian church.  This aunt, to me, was the kind that would let you know that she could be saved and that she was no different than a catholic.  So, my mom wants to marry this man knowing that there were obstacles to make it look right.  She was New Order and in 1987 a new order priest told my mom how to go about it.

    1) Priest said, go to a minister and have your marriage blessed. (He meant, go and get married in front of someone else other than a new order priest)

    2) And the Priest will see about annulling the 2 divorces of this man.

    3) my mom was told she can not receive any sacraments until the annulment is done.  Then she goes to confession, (sorry for what, should be for getting married outside the church)

    4) Then this man becomes baptized and I marry you both.

    Now, question, is this rigged?  I say yes!  My mother marries this man in my aunt's home by her minister and to add salt to the wound, my brother marries with them his girlfriend.  A double ring ceremony, as they say.

    It took me awhile to see that this was all wrong.  When I did see it, being traditional, I told my mom and my siblings and I got hate in my face.  

    I got a letter today from my sister that she never wants to speak to me again, til I apologize to mom and so-called step dad.  Apologize?  What did I do so wrong?  I didn't accept what happened.  I don't see my mom's confession as sorrow for marrying in front of a minister.  

    My mom told me the step-by-step procedure to get what she wanted.  I asked my mom, what day did you marry in the church.  She said she does not recall.  They have celebrated their anniversary  for over 25 years on the day of marrying in front of a minister.

    I told our children, that this marriage never took place in the eyes of God and this man is not your step Grandpa.  

    So, the end result of my mom's scandal is the whole family against me.  That is 8  of my siblings.  My mother is 82.  Our last conversation ended with her hanging up on me.  We were talking about the changes in the church and how my mom sees the homosexuals as children of God.  I told my mom, you have changed mom.  You never taught your children these things. and she hung up.

    So, any reply to this is very welcomed.


    My reply isn't very trad, but I believe in devil's advocates ;) and your mom was a free agent after your dad passed. I'm not clear on the timeframe, but having her next 25-year marriage in any way "made right" in the conciliar church simply was never going to happen. I think she'll be in the clear for that because at least she asked. To ask a priest you believe to be a priest, and get that advice, and to be in a 25yr marriage ever sense, it would seem that your mom's heart was in the right place (she INTENDED to be married to this man in the eyes of God), and therefore the marriage is probably more valid in the eyes of God than we might imagine. And it can ONLY help your step-dad-?'s soul. (Not sure what to call him; sorry.)

    Definitely there are questions with step-grandad's previous marriages (no doubt), but with their advanced ages, and her being your mother, and especially if she's been faithful to this man, I'd throw in the towel on this one. Make her happy.

    (I grew up with this stuff, minus the most disturbing part:)

    You're NOT going to see eye-to-eye on the "Sodomy-Is-Okay!"and other lies of Satan. Your mom's been brainwashed by the conciliar church, but she's old, and trying to manage in a very turbulent era.

    My dad (former NO, now trad these last few years) still questions things, and I bet your mom does, too, more than you think. My dad's questions are opposite of your mom's, but in a similar vein. Anyone in that age group who has to question a "church" they had to defend for decades, it's going to be very hard for them. They've been "trained" to wonder if they're being a "Pharisee" in recognizing Sodomy is a sin, or if they're not being charitable enough to assume (whatever modernists say:) that God blossomed all these Sodomites suddenly and we should trust Rome that gay is okay.

    I think, for all that age group has been through, and all the "evolving" messages from the Vatican, that God's going to put MOST of that responsibility for these types of sins (especially regular marriages not being properly vetted) on the heretic priests and bishops, because your mom sought out answers and TRIED to be pleasing to God. According to her priest, she's in the clear. (Remember, you said it didn't occur to you immediately, either; and you're trad!)

    Plus, I'm just not sure she should be asking the Sodomites (conciliar bishops) for a blessing on anything, much less a marriage. Nyet. (Maybe your priest, one day, but not the Sodomite priests.)

    I agree you tell your children the truth, but advise them also that their grandmother believes differently, and why. Use it as an opportunity to show your kid the mystery of iniquity in action. My dad's had to re-learn how to do things from my children; that's tough. (He remembers, but it had been about 50 years for him?) My kids joy in telling him Latin prayers; his favorite hymns and chants were in Latin anyway, so they have that. Things I NEVER thought I'd see (my Dad singing chants from a wheelchair, widowed). Brings tears to your eyes.

    But I'm here to tell you, if you think converting your NO parent and step-whatever sounds nice, there's nothing sadder than an old man trying to remember HIS childhood hymns and chants as his grandchildren instruct him. It's awesome, but it's sad. You can see this sense of "betrayal" they feel; a heavy heart. And Daddy fears more now for the grandchildren than he ever did 5 years ago; he's CERTAIN 666 is here and is having bad dreams. Sometimes it's so hard to witness that I half-wonder if it's not better for the elderly faithful to die ignorant, but "covered" with the "Vatican 2 child" excuse.
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    Offline songbird

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    Sedevacantism and the annulment fiasco.
    « Reply #11 on: October 29, 2013, 08:42:57 PM »
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  • Cecelia:  Thank for taking the time to reply.  I spoke with my trad. priest today at length about it.  He said, even if the truth hit her, the shock would make anger come out, and that is what things look like today with the crisis in the church.  i never knew that angle and this is so true. I know of some NO people who consider us their friends and yet they know what we say is true and yet they just can't get over the hurdle.  Others laugh about it and stay in the NO.  But it is the point that some know that they did it wrong, but they want modernism.  They want things their way and they go for it!  And they do.

    What I read a few days ago on this forum, was a man, who divorced and remarried.  He went traditional, oh, my!  Now what shall he do, he says!  He wants to put things right!  Wow!  What a hurdle!  I pray that he does it!  How hard that must be to be shocked and then think of how he will do this.  When he does, he will feel free!

    Offline Sigismund

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    Sedevacantism and the annulment fiasco.
    « Reply #12 on: October 29, 2013, 09:05:21 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matto
    No matter how you see it there is a grave problem. Either a vast number of marriages are invalid, or a vast number of annulments are invalid. I believe it is the latter, and that many many people who are in valid marriages are getting bogus annulments. If I was a priest I would not want to give the sacraments to people who received Novus Ordo annulments and remarried.


    There really is no other possible conclusion.  It has to be one or the other.  
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir

    Offline poche

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    Sedevacantism and the annulment fiasco.
    « Reply #13 on: October 30, 2013, 01:11:31 AM »
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  • Quote from: songbird
    I am in need of listening to about my mom.  When my dad died, 5 years later my mom is introduced to a twice divorced no religion man by her sister-in-law of a unitarian church.  This aunt, to me, was the kind that would let you know that she could be saved and that she was no different than a catholic.  So, my mom wants to marry this man knowing that there were obstacles to make it look right.  She was New Order and in 1987 a new order priest told my mom how to go about it.

    1) Priest said, go to a minister and have your marriage blessed. (He meant, go and get married in front of someone else other than a new order priest)

    2) And the Priest will see about annulling the 2 divorces of this man.

    3) my mom was told she can not receive any sacraments until the annulment is done.  Then she goes to confession, (sorry for what, should be for getting married outside the church)

    4) Then this man becomes baptized and I marry you both.

    Now, question, is this rigged?  I say yes!  My mother marries this man in my aunt's home by her minister and to add salt to the wound, my brother marries with them his girlfriend.  A double ring ceremony, as they say.

    It took me awhile to see that this was all wrong.  When I did see it, being traditional, I told my mom and my siblings and I got hate in my face.  

    I got a letter today from my sister that she never wants to speak to me again, til I apologize to mom and so-called step dad.  Apologize?  What did I do so wrong?  I didn't accept what happened.  I don't see my mom's confession as sorrow for marrying in front of a minister.  

    My mom told me the step-by-step procedure to get what she wanted.  I asked my mom, what day did you marry in the church.  She said she does not recall.  They have celebrated their anniversary  for over 25 years on the day of marrying in front of a minister.

    I told our children, that this marriage never took place in the eyes of God and this man is not your step Grandpa.  

    So, the end result of my mom's scandal is the whole family against me.  That is 8  of my siblings.  My mother is 82.  Our last conversation ended with her hanging up on me.  We were talking about the changes in the church and how my mom sees the homosexuals as children of God.  I told my mom, you have changed mom.  You never taught your children these things. and she hung up.

    So, any reply to this is very welcomed.

    There is the possibility that one of the marriages won't be able to be annulled.

     

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