Many sedevacantists claim they know with certitude that a Pope is a true heretic even in the internal forum since after all, no one can read hearts, we can and must only just make the best judgment we can from the externals.

But it just struck me that that's not even true. Not even the first half of it.

If there was ever a man on earth, who could judge even in the internal forum, and read hearts, alive at the time, it was St. Padre Pio. And St. Padre Pio not only told the Pope he knew his heart but clearly and unequivocally pronounced his submission to Pope Paul VI as the true and only Roman Pontiff of the Catholic Church.

For example, Padre Pio endorsed the Encyclical Humanae Vitae by Pope Paul VI, about ten days before his own death. The letter he wrote to the Pope has been published.

St. Padre Pio as is well known was vigorously opposed to the spirit of novelty that was in the air at the time. Indeed, most sedevacantists including the Dimonds praise him. But he was no less vigorous in recognizing that Pope Paul VI was truly Pope, not Cardinal Siri, not some alleged duplicate or double, not some other person elected by conclavists, not no one at all.

So St. Padre Pio nor his spiritual children were ever sedevacantists. But it is well known a famous spiritual daughter of St. Padre supported the Society all along and more, St. Padre Pio himself kissed Archbishop Lefebvre's ring! He knew the Archbishop's heart was golden just as he knew that the Pope was really the Pope.

Anyway, as for the letter Fr. Gruner mentioned, professing faith in Christ and true obedience to the Roman Pontiff, in it among other things St. Padre Pio said

I unite myself in spirit with my Brothers, and in a spirit of faith, love and obedience to the greatness of Him whom you represent on earth, offer my respectful homage to Your August Person, humbly kneeling at Your feet.

...I know that Your heart suffers much these days on account of the happenings in the Church: for peace in the world, for the great needs of its peoples; but above all, for the lack of obedience of some, even Catholics, to the lofty teachings which You, assisted by the Holy Spirit and in the name of God, have given us. I offer Your Holiness my daily prayers and sufferings, the insignificant but sincere offering of the least of your sons, asking the Lord to comfort you with His grace to continue along the direct yet often burdensome way—in defense of those eternal truths which can never change with the times.

In the name of my spiritual sons and of the "Praying Groups" I thank Your Holiness for the clear and decisive words You have spoken in the recent encyclical, "Humanae Vitae" ...

For someone claiming that sedevacantists claim to know hearts, you and others who would make such a case are claiming to know the extent of what was revealed to Fr. Pio. The facts are, we don't know the full extent of what he knew. We do know, with certainty and docuмentation that St. Vincent Ferrer, whose canonization we all agree upon, followed an anti-pope. A man who was so gifted with the ability to preform miracles was permitted by God to be ignorant of the truth. When the veil was lifted, he corrected his actions.

I've seen a lot of quotes and actions attributed to Fr. Pio, but never any unbiased or credible docuмentation. Actually, I've never been provided with any sources regarding him. I think we would all do well to avoid using such "facts" in our discussions, especially when they use the good name of a priest.

I'm really disappointed in this post, Nishant. Of most Catholics who accept Bergoglio's claim, I usually think you are one of the most consistent and well-balanced, even though I mostly disagree with you. Such an emotional arguement is beneath you, it pains me to read it.

Many sedevacantists claim they know with certitude that a Pope is a true heretic even in the internal forum since after all, no one can read hearts, we can and must only just make the best judgment we can from the externals.

But it just struck me that that's not even true. Not even the first half of it.

If there was ever a man on earth, who could judge even in the internal forum, and read hearts, alive at the time, it was St. Padre Pio. And St. Padre Pio not only told the Pope he knew his heart but clearly and unequivocally pronounced his submission to Pope Paul VI as the true and only Roman Pontiff of the Catholic Church.

Quote from: Fr. Gruner

For example, Padre Pio endorsed the Encyclical Humanae Vitae by Pope Paul VI, about ten days before his own death. The letter he wrote to the Pope has been published.

St. Padre Pio as is well known was vigorously opposed to the spirit of novelty that was in the air at the time. Indeed, most sedevacantists including the Dimonds praise him. But he was no less vigorous in recognizing that Pope Paul VI was truly Pope, not Cardinal Siri, not some alleged duplicate or double, not some other person elected by conclavists, not no one at all.

So St. Padre Pio nor his spiritual children were ever sedevacantists. But it is well known a famous spiritual daughter of St. Padre supported the Society all along and more, St. Padre Pio himself kissed Archbishop Lefebvre's ring! He knew the Archbishop's heart was golden just as he knew that the Pope was really the Pope.

Anyway, as for the letter Fr. Gruner mentioned, professing faith in Christ and true obedience to the Roman Pontiff, in it among other things St. Padre Pio said

Quote

I unite myself in spirit with my Brothers, and in a spirit of faith, love and obedience to the greatness of Him whom you represent on earth, offer my respectful homage to Your August Person, humbly kneeling at Your feet.

...I know that Your heart suffers much these days on account of the happenings in the Church: for peace in the world, for the great needs of its peoples; but above all, for the lack of obedience of some, even Catholics, to the lofty teachings which You, assisted by the Holy Spirit and in the name of God, have given us. I offer Your Holiness my daily prayers and sufferings, the insignificant but sincere offering of the least of your sons, asking the Lord to comfort you with His grace to continue along the direct yet often burdensome way—in defense of those eternal truths which can never change with the times.

In the name of my spiritual sons and of the "Praying Groups" I thank Your Holiness for the clear and decisive words You have spoken in the recent encyclical, "Humanae Vitae" ...

Padre Pio was not omniscient unless you are suggesting that? As someone who is very devoted to him since I was a kid and I have read everything Padre Pio, you have to be careful with what you read with him. There are some acquaintances that have shown me Padre Pio as the model obedient modernist to the New Mass among other "reforms."

There are several instances of things in his own life that the Lord God never showed to him. Actually MHFM has a pretty decent response there are plenty of other examples, and as was mentioned before many canonized Saints (not that Padre Pio was canonized by a valid Pope) in the history of the Church followed anti-Popes. Not just St. Vincent Ferrer someone can still err in good faith on the pope issue and be saved, no one that seriously takes the faith debates this question not even the most rigorist like the Dimonds, Ibryani etc... The only difference with them is that as soon as you are presented with their evidence, and you don't immediately accept it all. You are a bad willed heretic, but they agree that some people err on good faith, even if it is very few where this will apply.

Padre Pio didn’t know everything

 

Since Padre Pio was given miraculous gifts that surpass even the greatest saints of Church history, some have fallen into the false idea that he somehow knew everything.  But Padre Pio, being a mere human and an instrument of God’s will, only knew what the Lord revealed to him and what the Lord wanted him to know.  Like everyone else, he remained ignorant of many other things.

 

For instance, his spiritual director, Fr. Agostino, asked Padre Pio whether a physician who died in a war was saved or lost.  Padre Pio said: “I know nothing.”  Fr. Benedetto asked Padre Pio about Fr. Luca who could not be found after a battle.  Padre Pio replied: “Concerning Fr. Luca of happy memory, I know nothing... But my mind tells me that he must not be sought among the living.  May it please God to disprove my presentiment.”  Padre Pio was proven

to be wrong: Fr. Luca turned up alive.[cxcv]

 

Sometimes Padre Pio’s judgments and assessments were incorrect.  For instance, there is the case of Padre Pio’s nephew.  Padre Pio’s nephew, Ettore Masone, had been kicked out of college because the administration discovered that he had epilepsy, and the college didn’t want the responsibility of taking care of him.  When Padre Pio learned that his cousin was no longer in school, he presumed that he had dropped out.  “Get away from me, you bum!” shouted Padre Pio to his nephew.  “You have a lot

of gall just to come into my presence!” he said.  “Why are you talking to me this way, Uncle?” his nephew replied.  “Because you dropped out of college.  Go away!”  “Uncle, read this letter.”  When Padre Pio read the real reason for Ettore being asked to leave,

he put his head on his desk and began to cry.[cxcvi]

 

 Padre Pio source

It is interesting you talk about Padre Pio because his sister who was 50 years a nun, left the Conciliar Church because of how scandalous it was. Her particular order was so devastated that it was for the good of her soul that she left her order and continued to live her vows outside of that structure. I would suggest that you read the letters that Padre Pio wrote to her sister during this time, so please quit having this idealistic theoretical understanding of the Crisis of the Church. Even some of the best of the best of the best fell through so what makes you think you are any better? There are also many other priest which have had the gift of reading hearts and great sanctity which are not known to other people who followed roughly a +Lefebvre line and some even have just remained agnostic on the whole pope issue. Having spoken to some religious intimately some of them have related to me stories of some stigmatist that I was never even aware of. There are plenty of victim souls out there, hidden from the eyes of man but precious in the sight of God. This is why the world has not suffered meteorites in my humble opinion. Quite simply we have the benefit of 50 years to look back, and so much docuмented stuff. It was so much more difficult to know what was going on back in the day as it is now. Its never too late, and one day you to will see that your argumentation is false. One day you too will say "this is too much" I guess I was wrong, but its never too late. No one will hate you for it, but rather we simply pray that day hastens in your intellect. Its a cruel world out there and we have a soul to save. Our own and those whom God has put over our charge wherever that might be.

The reason why this post particularly interest me is because I used to believe everything that was written on the books, especially the very Novus Ordo friendly ones. For example that an Anglican was saved and Padre Pio said "let us pray for his soul because he is in purgatory." Or my favorite that John F. Kennedy went to heaven, and many other false things that they attribute to him like Garabandal etc... Padre Pio was a suffering soul, he was not a theologian but a victim. The gift of reading hearts was strictly for medicinal purposes in the confessional for a very specific purpose, to bring contrition and greater faith in the Church the ark of salvation. It was not for personal use, or to know his enemies or Church politics or anything else. Always keep that in mind.

edit: forgot to add the quote.

As far as Padre Pio is concerned, he only "knew" things to the extent that God gave him to know them.  Had God revealed to Padre Pio the illegitimacy of Paul VI, Padre Pio's coming out with it could have averted the crisis in the Church.  And God has allowed the crisis in the Church to happen for a reason.  He did not want Padre Pio to avert it.

As far as Padre Pio is concerned, he only "knew" things to the extent that God gave him to know them.  Had God revealed to Padre Pio the illegitimacy of Paul VI, Padre Pio's coming out with it could have averted the crisis in the Church.  And God has allowed the crisis in the Church to happen for a reason.  He did not want Padre Pio to avert it.

Even supposing that such a great authority like Padre Pio would have called him an anti-Pope because an Angel revealed it to him. It can never be based on private revelation, but on the public deposit of faith. I have always said this to those close to me that none of these things I say (Sv'ism or even back in the day during my sedeplenist days) are NOT based on supernatural revelations from Our Lord/Angels/Our Lady, but mainly Catholic magisterial teaching, the way which God wanted us to learn. Obedience to the teaching authority of the Church is obedience to God, the only difference is we must make the distinction that which is authentically from our lawful pastors and the wolves who seek to destroy us.

 This is what St. Vincent had repeated several times, especially when he publicly deposed Pedro de Luna, anti-Pope Benedict XIII for being a schismatic, because of his refusal to step down for the good of the Church. This is the important distinction that St. Vincent had made that we cannot ever come to these conclusions through private revelation. Anyone that is familiar with how often even the Saints were deceived through supernatural revelations and visions, read St. John of the Cross (The Mystic Doctor). Even if you are certain that the private revelation is truly from heaven, there is no absolute way of knowing how to interpret it. Think of St. Francis when he heard from Our Lord, "Rebuild my Church" and he went to his local Church with a hammer  :roll-laugh2: to start repairing the Church because it was worn down. That is the problem with the premise of Nishant and I hope that he can be able to see just how flawed his thinking is. "If Padre Pio does not know, then no one else can know much less any of you."

Ladislaus made a good point, and it is clear that God reveals to his Saints only certain facts for the good of other souls, never for their own benefit. Anything that had to deal with their own lives with extreme rare exceptions the Lord would never illuminate their minds on these matters. Some Saints prophesied the day and the hour they would die for example, St. Therese of Lisieux prayed to God to reveal the state of her Father's soul etc... With very rare exceptions because the Lord knows of the purity of their intention and it would not impede the road to their salvation. Reminds me of the story of St. Pius X and the maid who stole his socks to put them on someone she knew was sick, having great faith that the Lord would heal that person if she did that. Sure enough, she took the socks put them on to the person she had in mind and she was cured! St. Pius X responded that his feet hurt despite him wearing those socks every day  .

The difference is in his vocation he was a contemplative religious (Padre Pio) that desired to be a missionary, but God had other wonders for him. Now look at St. Vincent Ferrer who was among many other great theologians the ones that helped shorten the crisis of the Great Western Schism. Now what is interesting St. Vincent could have simply asked heaven for the answer to the GWS and he did pray very much for illumination, but he nevertheless never ceased studying and looking back to the Magisterium as the SOLE source of his guidance. Not any pseudo or true prophets or revelations or whatever else you have in mind. None of these things stand alone on their own without the teaching authority of the Church, such is the way that God has set up his Church to have men rule over it and there is no other way around it.

The Padre Pio argument falls short and is a very weak argument because it leads to greater dangers which is very prevalent in the conservative crowd that jump up and down at every single "modern prophet of our days." The stuff I have heard from some older friends and the ideas they hold... I will later post some of these different revelations. Even the elect will be deceived rings in my ears... Some of the most holy and best Catholics I know have fallen into many of these traps. So don't ever underestimate the astuteness of the enemy and how deeply he has sowed cockle in our fields.

+Caritas et veritate+

Quote from: ThomisticPhilosopher

Even supposing that such a great authority like Padre Pio would have called him an anti-Pope because an Angel revealed it to him. It can never be based on private revelation, but on the public deposit of faith.

Absolutely, but a Padre Pio statement on the matter would have powerfully shaped the debate and would have had tremendous influence.

I would say it would be the cherry on the top of the cake, it is an accident not the essence/substance. The difference is that for most PEOPLE and the approach that Nishant is advocating is that it would be the essence and not an accident. Thus Padre Pio's theoretical Sedevacantism would have definitely swayed me back in the day towards SV'ism, but for all the wrong reasons. You see it is all fine and dandy until people start believing in heresy, take for example the mystic visionary of "Our Lady" of Kibeho. Taking private revelation as your authority is a double edged sword, it only takes ONE and only one heretical vision of even a true mystic to lead people into eternal damnation I have seen it happen to both Novus Ordites and even long term SSPX'ers its scary. A very older friend who attend exclusively the SSPX and does not attend the New mass, was really into the apparition of "Our Lady of Kibeho." So he gave me the book, my friend started telling me that Our Lady does not care if you are Catholic what she wants is conversion of heart. He started preaching this blasphemy to me and slowly but surely he was having the most serious doubts about tradition in general. So I underlined for him all the heretical parts of "Our Lady" of Kibeho, showed him all the Catholic magisterial teaching on the matter. It took me over a month seriously to get through his thick skull that he is accepting heresy, specifically that non-Catholics are a path to salvation and that the only thing that matters is the heart of the person. God does not really "care" if you are Catholic he is looking for something else, and that it is pride that makes us want to stand out among all other false religions etc... No profession of faith, just good works! Well done Pelagius!

I know that it varies between individuals, but whenever you start seeing WAY too much emphasis on private revelation people start going towards heretical tendencies. Someone that comes to mind that is very SSPX rigorist type of individuals is the youtube channel Peter Romanus. I listen to everything these guys post, and they are definitely very zealous for the faith but you can tell that they are preaching the end of the world REALLY really soon and all of this based on private revelation. They are a perfect example of someone that will never become Sedevacantist because of certain private revelations they hold to be true. His Excellency Williamson is very much into private revelation to an excessive degree and he is another one that will never jump ship because of private revelation, not Church teaching. Good guys and fervent for the faith, but they are misleading souls with their apocalyptic fire and brimstone spirit of a "small remnant" Church that resembles the Novatianist Church. I have said this so many times and I hate to be so repetitive, but it is necessary to drive the point home because it keeps coming up like a zombie.

+pax+

I think before we have the "sedevantist" discussion, we need to have the Paul VI discussion.  

1) Was Paul VI's Dad the editor of a socialist newspaper?  This means that Paul VI was a likely Fabian activist.  If you are raised in a socialist home, you would fully understand that these "reactionary" institutions need to be changed from within so that means socialists need to pretend to go along with the program until they can gain access to power.  Paul VI was a milquetoast person who virtually nobody finds inspiring so he was lifted up by insiders for the purpose of Vatican II and it's aftermath.

2 Why did that little twerp (the assistant) destroy ALL of Paul VI's private writings upon hearing of Paul VI's death by heart attack?

3) Humanae Vitae is NOTHING to write home about, it usurps the purpose of marriage, why did Padre Pio get all excited over such a mundance encyclical?

4) Paul VI was routinely doing things behind Pius XII's back and, in all likelihood, signed docuмents for him, including (I would be willing to bet) the excommunication of Fr. Feeney.  When Pius XII became aware of some, unknown to us betrayals, the punishment was really mild.  What is the rest of the story?  

5) Paul VI, when issued the novus ordo, did say that the "pius" will be offended most.  Was he clairvoyant?  Or was this because Milwaukee was the test ground to see how the novus ordo would be accepted?  Archbishop Weakland, who paid a million dollars in hush money to his boyfriend (straight out of the collection plates) was Paul VI's point man in Milwaukee.  These test runs showed the results that indeed the pius are not pleased to see a protestantized worship service.

6) There are hundreds more...  In fact, Paul VI, if thought about at all, brings questions to mind constantly.  

Paul VI, to my knowledge, did not kiss a Koran.