Author Topic: Sedevacantism 101 (Read 3481 times)

Matto · « **Reply #5 on:** July 21, 2016, 03:30:26 PM »

Quote from: MyrnaM

Matto, you can go on and deny day after day, but in truth you know the answer. I can feel it, that you know.

I do not deny but I do not affirm either. I just really don't know. If I had to choose a side I would choose sedevacantism, but I have doubts that I cannot reconcile.

Matto · « **Reply #6 on:** July 21, 2016, 08:43:57 PM »

Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie

Thanks for your reply. Your point is interesting. In summary, you indicate [the Church teaches] that if a person is recognized as the Pope then that person is in fact the pope. Is it possible for a non-Catholic to become pope in this manner? May I request a reference to material that supports this sedeplenism orientation?

Someone saw my post and sent me this via PM:

The citation is from Cardinal Billot, Tractatus De Ecclesia Christi, thesis XXIX, §3

“Finally, whatever one may think of the possibility or the impossibility of an heretical pope, there is at least one point absolutely clear which no one can put in doubt, and it is that the acceptance, the adherence, of the Universal Church to a pope will always be, by itself, the infallible sign of the legitimacy of such-and-such a pontiff; and consequently of the existence of all the conditions required for legitimacy itself. God can permit that at times a vacancy in the Apostolic See be prolonged for a long time. He can also permit that doubt arise about the legitimacy of this or that election. He cannot however permit that the whole Church accept as Pontiff him who is not so truly and legitimately. Therefore, from the moment in which the Pope is accepted by the Church and united to her as the head to the body, it is no longer permitted to raise doubts about a possible vice of election or a possible lack of any condition whatsoever necessary for legitimacy. For the aforementioned adhesion of the Church heals in the root all fault in the election and proves infallibly the existence of all the required conditions ... For this very reason, Alexander VI was not a false Pope, but a legitimate one. Therefore he was not a heretic"

This was posted on this forum a while back by Nishant. I'm sure others can find similar quotes from other sources.

songbird · « **Reply #7 on:** July 21, 2016, 08:55:02 PM »

We know for sure that those who excommunicate themselves are not to be followed, or we too shall excommunicate ourselves.

All those who do the the New Order, follow the new order are excommunicated. You will know them by their fruits.

Now, if the clergy are excommunicated, by their own desires, they are not followers of Christ. Very simple.

They say an adulterated mess, no Precious Blood! I can't think of anything so rotten as that!

Some may call it sedevacantism but excommunication is where "they" are. You can not follow them or excommunicate yourself.

songbird · « **Reply #8 on:** July 21, 2016, 09:00:21 PM »

Define "Pope" and define "Church". Church is what Christ founded. Then Church defined "Pope" and nomination, at Vatican 1. Nomination of one that is "Catholic".Well any one does the New Order and makes no consecration of clergy is not to be nominated.

The true Church has her teachings and definitions in order. We must read and some people don't do that.

Cantarella · « **Reply #9 on:** July 21, 2016, 10:20:35 PM »

St. Bellarmine considered the case of a Bishop teaching his flock heterodox doctrine, this is, anything that is contrary to the precedent timeless doctrine. He concluded that people should not listen to him; although he acknowledges that they have no the power to actually depose him. The Catholic Principle of Non-Contradiction is what determines the action followed by the laity in such a case.

Quote from: St. Bellarmine

"It is true that the people should discern the true prophet from the false, but not by any other rule than the following: Observe carefully if what he teaches is contrary to what his predecessors have said,[70] or that which is said by other pastors, ordinaries, and above all the Apostolic See and the principal Church; for it is commanded that the people should listen to their pastors: Luke X: He who listens to you listens to me; and Matt. XXIII, do that which they tell you to do. The people ought not to judge their pastors except when they introduce innovations or doctrines which are in disagreement with those of the other
pastors."[71]

"Moreover, it is necessary to observe that the people can clearly discriminate, by the rule that we have given, between true and false prophets. But for all that they cannot depose of a false pastor if he is a bishop and substitute another in his place. For the Lord and Apostle only commanded that false prophets not be listened to by the people; but not that the people should depose them. It has always been the practice of the Church to depose heretical bishops by councils of bishops or by an act of the sovereign pontiffs." (Cf. loc. cit., Note 15).