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Author Topic: Sedevacante  (Read 3797 times)

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Offline Lover of Truth

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Sedevacante
« on: February 07, 2010, 06:17:45 PM »
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  • "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline Arborman

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    Sedevacante
    « Reply #1 on: February 07, 2010, 07:12:05 PM »
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  • Quote
    It is a real problem in fact, that so many traditional clergy men have failed to see that it is precisely thier faliure to denounce these imposture "Popes" that the crisis in the Church continues unabated.  


    This is one of my biggest concerns, being new to tradition and just coming out the the NO Mass to the diocesan TLM.  Why haven't more traditional Catholics called the the popes out?  Why does the SSPX tippy toe around this issue?  It is becoming apparent to me most of the church is no longer Catholic.  Is it so difficult to say Christians are no longer found at the top of the church?  For Benedict to go to a Jєωιѕн ѕуηαgσgυє and not tell them to convert is an act of apostasy isn't it?  

    I am not an expert on Catholicism, except to say I was seldom taught it, if ever, in all my years of Catholic schools and NO Masses.
    To Jesus thru Mary, for the greater glory of God.


    Offline St Jude Thaddeus

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    « Reply #2 on: February 07, 2010, 07:52:27 PM »
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  • Quote from: Arborman

    This is one of my biggest concerns, being new to tradition and just coming out the the NO Mass to the diocesan TLM.  Why haven't more traditional Catholics called the the popes out?  Why does the SSPX tippy toe around this issue?  It is becoming apparent to me most of the church is no longer Catholic.  Is it so difficult to say Christians are no longer found at the top of the church?  For Benedict to go to a Jєωιѕн ѕуηαgσgυє and not tell them to convert is an act of apostasy isn't it?  

    I am not an expert on Catholicism, except to say I was seldom taught it, if ever, in all my years of Catholic schools and NO Masses.


    Many of us non-sedes do "call the Pope out" as you say but we remain loyal to his office. The reason we do this is because we have seen too many times what happens to the sedes who break free from all control and try to govern themselves.

    1) The sede groups end up as personality cults. Do a little reading about the man in my avatar, Bishop Francis Schuckardt, or about the Palmarian Catholic Church in Spain, or a sicko named Richard Ibranyi.

    2) Sedes splinter into many different groups, each one excommunicating and anathematizing the other, like Pentecostals, Baptists, and Methodists do.

    3) Scandals arise which no one has the authority to resolve, such as the situation we are seeing with the SGG in Ohio.

    4) Sedevacantism is a dead-end mentality. The only way a Pope can be restored is if we are in the Last Days before the end of the world. If we are not in the final times now, then they are left adrift, with no mechanism for restoring the Church.

    5)Sedevacantism is in and of itself a radical proposition. This radicalism grows and grows until it results in mentalities like those of some of the more vociferous posters on this forum, who accept no authority higher than their own consciences and their own private interpretations of Church docuмents. Since they can find no one to agree with them, and they believe, in the style of little kids on the playground that they will somehow get "cooties" from those who don't agree with them on every single point, they are unable to form a community of any kind and are cut off from the reception of the Sacraments and assistance at a Mass. The end result for them is increasing isolation, radicalism, and either mental illness or a lonely death in rebellion.
    St. Jude, who, disregarding the threats of the impious, courageously preached the doctrine of Christ,
    pray for us.

    Offline CM

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    Sedevacante
    « Reply #3 on: February 07, 2010, 08:30:13 PM »
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  • Quote from: St Jude Thaddeus
    Many of us non-sedes do "call the Pope out" as you say but we remain loyal to his office.


    No you don't.  You blaspheme it by saying heresy can be taught from it for years and years.

    Quote
    1) The sede groups end up as personality cults. Do a little reading about the man in my avatar, Bishop Francis Schuckardt, or about the Palmarian Catholic Church in Spain, or a sicko named Richard Ibranyi.


    Just because a person holds the correct position on this matter or that matter doesn't mean that he will not be led into other errors and sins.  Your point #1 is not a refutation of sedevacantism.

    Quote
    2) Sedes splinter into many different groups, each one excommunicating and anathematizing the other, like Pentecostals, Baptists, and Methodists do.


    Quote from: Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, 1441, [i
    ex cathedra[/i]]Therefore the Holy Roman Church condemns, reproves, anathematizes ... whoever holds opposing or contrary views.


    Your point #2 does not refute sedevacanitsm.

    Quote
    3) Scandals arise which no one has the authority to resolve, such as the situation we are seeing with the SGG in Ohio.


    Your point #3 does not refute sedvacantism for the same reason that #1 does not.

    Quote
    4) Sedevacantism is a dead-end mentality. The only way a Pope can be restored is if we are in the Last Days before the end of the world. If we are not in the final times now, then they are left adrift, with no mechanism for restoring the Church.


    Non-Catholic clergy convert to the Catholic Faith, Catholic clergy in Rome get together and elect a pope.  Problem solved.

    Your point #4, besides being false, does not refute sedevacantism.

    Quote
    5)Sedevacantism is in and of itself a radical proposition. This radicalism grows and grows until it results in mentalities like those of some of the more vociferous posters on this forum, who accept no authority higher than their own consciences and their own private interpretations of Church docuмents. Since they can find no one to agree with them, and they believe, in the style of little kids on the playground that they will somehow get "cooties" from those who don't agree with them on every single point, they are unable to form a community of any kind and are cut off from the reception of the Sacraments and assistance at a Mass. The end result for them is increasing isolation, radicalism, and either mental illness or a lonely death in rebellion.


    The Magisterial docuмents are not "interpreted" but one has a duty to assent to WHAT THEY ACTUALLY SAY, and to live their lives accordingly.

    If they say that such and such is a dogma, then the opposite is heresy and all who profess heresy are to be avoided, as the Apostle says.

    Your point #5 does not refute sedevacantism.

    Offline Raoul76

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    « Reply #4 on: February 07, 2010, 08:42:07 PM »
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  • Arborman_ said:
    Quote
    This is one of my biggest concerns, being new to tradition and just coming out the the NO Mass to the diocesan TLM.  Why haven't more traditional Catholics called the the popes out?  Why does the SSPX tippy toe around this issue


    Fear of going out on a limb.  

    The SSPX are most likely what is called in politics a gatekeeper organization.  Think about it -- the devil knew there would be a traditional rebellion after Vatican II so he had to do some "control and contain," he had to take this traditional rebellion and nip it in the bud.  

    What should have been obvious right away, and what should have started a revolution, is that Freemasons and Jєωs took over the Vatican structures.  But right when this realization was dawning on Catholics en masse, up pops the "saintly" Abp. Lefebvre -- a man whose name I believe will be cursed, not blessed -- who, with a masterly command of half-truths, kept people sweet by giving them the traditional Mass ( sort of, the 1962 John XXIII Mass ) while making them believe that the VII "Popes" were Popes.  Of course, what this really did is bought time for the devil and kept people trapped.

    For decades now, this farce of the "dialogues" between SSPX and VII has been going on, as if piranha-like, vicious Modernists and Masons and Jєωs are going to relent because of some plaintive Frenchman.  Give me a freaking break.  This is the biggest con job ever!  These guys do not have "dialogues" with anyone, they are gangsters, a Mafia.  They will NEVER let go until all trads realize they are pathetic nothings without any power or authority, and elect their own Pope.  Unfortunately, this is unlikely to happen until after the Chastisement.

    Not only is SSPX most likely part of this Hegelian dialectic, but they do not have the fullness of the Catholic faith.  They teach NFP and salvation outside the Church.  Using them to correct Vatican II is sort of like having a high-class call girl chastise a low-end streetwalker for being tacky.  The high-class call girl can pass in public for being a respectable woman because she dresses well -- just like the SSPX has their pretty Mass -- but she still is what she is underneath.
     
    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.


    Offline Raoul76

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    Sedevacante
    « Reply #5 on: February 07, 2010, 08:50:01 PM »
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  • I have a book about the Great Western Schism, I misplaced it somewhere, but it talks in there about how if there is a crisis, the Pope is OBLIGATED to respond to the concerns of bishops, publicly, and he doesn't get to waste decades doing it.  

    This is how the various councils were called that led to the end of the Schism.  The Pope HAD to allow the Council to be called even if it meant his own deposition, because of some Church law referring to times of emergency.  One of the Popes was deposed by a council he himself called.

    The traditional Catholics -- who unfortunately aren't traditional, because we're in a time that is far, far worse than the schism -- could theoretically have declared a state of emergency and deposed the Pope.  Ratzinger would have continued to act as he is doing from Rome, but meanwhile the real Church would have been this other group.  

    Anyway, that wasn't God's plan.  God's plan is either to end the world, or else He has something else up his sleeve, some kind of Chastisement-Awakening-Revolution scenario.  

     
    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.

    Offline St Jude Thaddeus

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    « Reply #6 on: February 07, 2010, 09:53:36 PM »
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  • Quote from: CM
    Quote from: St Jude Thaddeus
    Many of us non-sedes do "call the Pope out" as you say but we remain loyal to his office.


    No you don't.  You blaspheme it by saying heresy can be taught from it for years and years.

    Quote
    1) The sede groups end up as personality cults. Do a little reading about the man in my avatar, Bishop Francis Schuckardt, or about the Palmarian Catholic Church in Spain, or a sicko named Richard Ibranyi.


    Just because a person holds the correct position on this matter or that matter doesn't mean that he will not be led into other errors and sins.  Your point #1 is not a refutation of sedevacantism.

    Quote
    2) Sedes splinter into many different groups, each one excommunicating and anathematizing the other, like Pentecostals, Baptists, and Methodists do.


    Quote from: Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, 1441, [i
    ex cathedra[/i]]Therefore the Holy Roman Church condemns, reproves, anathematizes ... whoever holds opposing or contrary views.


    Your point #2 does not refute sedevacanitsm.

    Quote
    3) Scandals arise which no one has the authority to resolve, such as the situation we are seeing with the SGG in Ohio.


    Your point #3 does not refute sedvacantism for the same reason that #1 does not.

    Quote
    4) Sedevacantism is a dead-end mentality. The only way a Pope can be restored is if we are in the Last Days before the end of the world. If we are not in the final times now, then they are left adrift, with no mechanism for restoring the Church.


    Non-Catholic clergy convert to the Catholic Faith, Catholic clergy in Rome get together and elect a pope.  Problem solved.

    Your point #4, besides being false, does not refute sedevacantism.

    Quote
    5)Sedevacantism is in and of itself a radical proposition. This radicalism grows and grows until it results in mentalities like those of some of the more vociferous posters on this forum, who accept no authority higher than their own consciences and their own private interpretations of Church docuмents. Since they can find no one to agree with them, and they believe, in the style of little kids on the playground that they will somehow get "cooties" from those who don't agree with them on every single point, they are unable to form a community of any kind and are cut off from the reception of the Sacraments and assistance at a Mass. The end result for them is increasing isolation, radicalism, and either mental illness or a lonely death in rebellion.


    The Magisterial docuмents are not "interpreted" but one has a duty to assent to WHAT THEY ACTUALLY SAY, and to live their lives accordingly.

    If they say that such and such is a dogma, then the opposite is heresy and all who profess heresy are to be avoided, as the Apostle says.

    Your point #5 does not refute sedevacantism.


    As I said earlier,

    Quote from: SJT

    The end result for them is increasing isolation, radicalism, and either mental illness or a lonely death in rebellion.
    St. Jude, who, disregarding the threats of the impious, courageously preached the doctrine of Christ,
    pray for us.

    Offline SJB

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    « Reply #7 on: February 08, 2010, 08:18:11 AM »
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  • Quote from: St. Jude T
    Many of us non-sedes do "call the Pope out" as you say but we remain loyal to his office.


    This is not a Catholic idea. You separate the pope from his office in matters of faith and morals.

    Quote
    The reason we do this is because we have seen too many times what happens to the sedes who break free from all control and try to govern themselves.


    SSPX is totally independent of the current claimant to the papacy. Hasn't the SSPX "splintered" too? Campos? St. John?
    FSSP?
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil


    Offline SJB

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    « Reply #8 on: February 08, 2010, 02:05:32 PM »
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  • Quote from: St. Jude T
    Actually, it was originally founded by Bp. Francis Schuckardt, the man in my avatar, in 1967. He had been a prominent lay member of the Blue Army of Fatima who got disgusted with the changes following the Council and formed his own organization, with diocesan approval, in Idaho. He had himself ordained as a bishop in the early 70's and moved the CMRI to the Mount St. Michael complex in Spokane. In 1984 he was ousted by a priest he had ordained named Denis Chicoine. Fr. Chicoine and a couple of other CMRI priests had doubts about the validity of their own ordinations by Bp. Schuckardt so they had themselves conditionally reordained by Bp. George Musey, who himself had been ordained by the Vietnamese Archbishop Ngo Dinh Thuc.

    Actually, this is all worthy of a good feature film and I won't go into all the details but you really need to do some Internet research on all this.

    Here is Bp. Schuckardt's side of the story:

    http://www.bishopschuckardt.com/

    Just do Google searches on the other names.


    May I ask why you use Bp. Schuckhardt as your avatar?
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    « Reply #9 on: February 08, 2010, 02:50:49 PM »
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  • Quote from: St Jude Thaddeus
    3) Scandals arise which no one has the authority to resolve, such as the situation we are seeing with the SGG in Ohio...


    The NO is, of course, free of this problem.  If scandals arise, the competent authority handles them swiftly and admirably!  Those countless boys who were sodomized have also been relieved at the "resolution" worked out by the Vatican... :wink:

    The entire landscape -- temporally AND spiritually -- is a DISASTER.  ALL who hold authority utterly fail to use it for the preservation and augmentation of the common good.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline St Jude Thaddeus

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    « Reply #10 on: February 09, 2010, 03:16:40 AM »
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  • Quote from: gladius_veritatis
    Quote from: St Jude Thaddeus
    3) Scandals arise which no one has the authority to resolve, such as the situation we are seeing with the SGG in Ohio...


    The NO is, of course, free of this problem.  If scandals arise, the competent authority handles them swiftly and admirably!  Those countless boys who were sodomized have also been relieved at the "resolution" worked out by the Vatican... :wink:

    The entire landscape -- temporally AND spiritually -- is a DISASTER.  ALL who hold authority utterly fail to use it for the preservation and augmentation of the common good.


    Yes, that's right. The NO world suffers from the same problem as many sede groups:  a lack of authority. Jesus Christ instituted a hierachical Church precisely in order to avoid these kinds of situations. Popes and bishops and priests who refuse to use their authority are almost as bad as no authority at all.

    I say "almost as bad" because usually a bad boss is better than no boss at all. I would rather have Obama, as bad as he is, than the total chaos we see in Somalia, for example. At least we can hope that the next President will be better, or at least bad in a different way.

    What can sedes hope for? The end of the world? The Great Monarchy, if that's even true? What if it doesn't come for another fifty years? Or a thousand years? What then?
    St. Jude, who, disregarding the threats of the impious, courageously preached the doctrine of Christ,
    pray for us.


    Offline St Jude Thaddeus

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    « Reply #11 on: February 09, 2010, 03:33:31 AM »
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  • Quote from: SJB
    Quote from: St. Jude T
    Many of us non-sedes do "call the Pope out" as you say but we remain loyal to his office.


    This is not a Catholic idea. You separate the pope from his office in matters of faith and morals.

    Quote
    The reason we do this is because we have seen too many times what happens to the sedes who break free from all control and try to govern themselves.


    SSPX is totally independent of the current claimant to the papacy. Hasn't the SSPX "splintered" too? Campos? St. John?
    FSSP?


    This is not a Catholic idea. You separate the pope from his office in matters of faith and morals.

    And you equate the sinful and fallible man who sits in Peter's Chair with the infallible office it represents. That is not very Catholic, is it? You reject various Popes and then declare that therefore the entire Church has defected and She and anyone who belongs to Her are now members of a different, non-Catholic religion. I am able to separate the office holders from the offices they hold, in the hopes that those offices will someday again be held by men worthy of them.

    SSPX is totally independent of the current claimant to the papacy. Hasn't the SSPX "splintered" too? Campos? St. John?
    FSSP?


    We can't say that the SSPX is "totally" independent of the Pope. It is engaged in discussions with him right now. Sedes have burned all their bridges behind them. You've crossed the Tiber, but going in the opposite direction as Julius Caesar, away from Rome instead of towards it.

    If a perfectly orthodox Pope were elected at the next conclave, what would you do?

    I already know your answer:  It'll never happen. Well, I don't have a crystal ball. And the SSPX has suffered from the vagaries of this crisis along with everybody else.
    St. Jude, who, disregarding the threats of the impious, courageously preached the doctrine of Christ,
    pray for us.

    Offline SJB

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    « Reply #12 on: February 09, 2010, 08:03:18 AM »
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  • Quote from: St. Jude T
    Yes, that's right. The NO world suffers from the same problem as many sede groups:  a lack of authority.


    The NO has a structure and a hierarchy. They certainly do have authority, it is just not a Catholic authority. It appears not to be Catholic. Are you saying the SSPX is the Catholic Church?
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline SJB

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    « Reply #13 on: February 09, 2010, 08:30:53 AM »
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  • Quote from: St. Jude T
    Quote from: SJB
    This is not a Catholic idea. You separate the pope from his office in matters of faith and morals.


    And you equate the sinful and fallible man who sits in Peter's Chair with the infallible office it represents. That is not very Catholic, is it? You reject various Popes and then declare that therefore the entire Church has defected and She and anyone who belongs to Her are now members of a different, non-Catholic religion. I am able to separate the office holders from the offices they hold, in the hopes that those offices will someday again be held by men worthy of them.


    Quote from: Relatio of Bp. Gasser, relator of the Faith at Vatican I
    1. In what sense can the infallibility of the Roman Pontiff be said to be personal?  It is said to be personal in order to exclude in this way a distinction between the Roman Pontiff and the Roman Church.  Indeed, infallibility is said to be personal in order thereby to exclude a distinction between the See and the one who holds the See.  Since this distinction did not acquire any patrons in the general congregations, I shall refrain from saying anything about it.  Therefore, having rejected the distinction between the Roman Church and the Roman Pontiff, between the See and the possessor of the See, that is, between the universal series and the individual Roman Pontiffs succeeding each other in this series, we defend the personal infallibility of the Roman Pontiff inasmuch as this prerogative belongs, by the promise of Christ, to each and every legitimate successor of Peter in his chair.
    Having said this, the notion of papal infallibility is not yet sufficiently defined.  The personal infallibility of the Pope must be more accurately defined in itself in the following way: it does not belong to the Roman Pontiff inasmuch as he is a private person, nor even inasmuch as he is a private teacher, since, as such, he is equal with all other private teachers and, as Cajetan wisely noted, equal does not have power over equal, not such power as the Roman Pontiff exercises over the Church Universal.  Hence we do not speak about personal infallibility, although we do defend the infallibility of the person of the Roman Pontiff, not as an individual person but as the person of the Roman Pontiff or a public person, that is, as head of the Church in his relation to the Church Universal.  Indeed it should not be said that the Pontiff is infallible simply because of the authority of the papacy but rather inasmuch as he is certainly and undoubtedly subject to the direction of divine assistance.  By the authority of the papacy, the Pontiff is always the supreme judge in matters of faith and morals, and the father and teacher of all Christians. But the divine assistance promised to him, by which he cannot err, he only enjoys as such when he really and actually exercises his duty as supreme judge and universal teacher of the Church in disputes about the Faith.  Thus, the sentence "The Roman Pontiff is infallible" should not be treated as false, since Christ promised that infallibility to the person of Peter and his successors, but it is incomplete since the Pope is only infallible when, by a solemn judgment, he defines a matter of faith and morals for the Church universal.

     2. In what sense can the infallibility of the Pope be said to be "separate"?  It is able to be called "separate," or rather distinct because it rests on a special promise of Christ and therefore on a special assistance of the Holy Spirit, which assistance is not one and the same with that which the whole body of the teaching Church enjoys when united with its head. For since Peter and his successor are the center of ecclesiastical unity, whose task it is to preserve the Church in a unity of faith and charity and to repair the Church when disturbed, his condition and his relation to the Church are completely special; and to this special and distinct condition corresponds a special and distinct privilege.  Therefore, in this sense there belongs to the Roman Pontiff a separate infallibility.  But in saying this we do not separate the Pontiff from his ordained union with the Church.  For the Pope is only infallible when, exercising his function as teacher of all Christians and therefore representing the whole Church, he judges and defines what must be believed or rejected by all. He is no more able to be separated from the universal Church than the foundation from the building it is destined to support.  Indeed we do not separate the Pope, defining, from the cooperation and consent of the Church, at least in the sense that we do not exclude this cooperation and this consent of the Church.  This is clear from the purpose for which this prerogative has been divinely granted.

    The purpose of this prerogative is the preservation of truth in the Church.  The special exercise of this prerogative occurs when there arise somewhere in the Church scandals against the faith, i.e., dissensions and heresies which the bishops of the individual churches or even gathered together in provincial council are unable to repress so that they are forced to appeal to the Apostolic See regarding the case, or when the bishops themselves are infected by the sad stain of error.  And thereby we do not exclude the cooperation of the Church because the infallibility of the Roman Pontiff does not come to him in the manner of inspiration or of revelation but through a divine assistance.  Therefore the Pope, by reason of his office and the gravity of the matter, is held to use the means suitable for properly discerning and aptly enunciating the truth.  These means are councils, or the advice of the bishops, cardinals, theologians, etc.  Indeed, the means are diverse according to the diversity of situations, and we should piously believe that, in the divine assistance promised to Peter and his successors by Christ, there is simultaneously contained a promise about the means which are necessary and suitable to make an infallible pontifical judgment.

    Finally we do not separate the Pope, even minimally, from the consent of the Church, as long as that consent is not laid down as a condition which is either antecedent or consequent. We are not able to separate the Pope from the consent of the Church because this consent is never able to be lacking to him. Indeed, since we believe that the Pope is infallible through the divine assistance, by that very fact we also believe that the assent of the Church will not be lacking to his definitions since it is not able to happen that the body of bishops be separated from its head, and since the Church universal is not able to fail.  For it is impossible that general obscurity be spread in respect to the more important truths which touch upon religion, as the Synod of Pistoia held.

    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline Arborman

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    « Reply #14 on: February 09, 2010, 09:16:48 AM »
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    If a perfectly orthodox Pope were elected at the next conclave, what would you do?


    I would follow him.  But which Cardinal today is still a good catholic?  Who could possibly be a "good" pope?  Where is this restoration going to come from?  Unless a traditional catholic bishop is elected and we know that will not happen.  The institution of the church appears to be destroyed and each individual is free to follow the faith the way they best see fit to do so.
    To Jesus thru Mary, for the greater glory of God.