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Author Topic: Sedes may consider Pius XII an anti-pope  (Read 1152 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Sedes may consider Pius XII an anti-pope
« on: September 07, 2019, 04:13:29 PM »
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  • http://www.traditio.com/comment/com1909.htm
    .
    Traditio.com has a lot of great info, and they are passionate sedevacantists, so visiting them every once and a while, you get a feel for what their flavor of sedevacantism is thinking.  For example, someone asked about their opinion on CMRI.  Overall, they approved of them, but included this little dig.
    .
    CMRI tries to justify its use of the Protestantized 1956 Holy Week by claiming that it occurred under Pius XII, whom they consider the last traditional pope (a contention that is coming under increasing scrutiny by traditional Catholics). 
    .
    So now sedevacantists are ready to throw out Pope Pius XII's papacy?  Ha ha.  Where does it end?  Who was the last true pope?  Tune in next week to find out...


    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Sedes may consider Pius XII an anti-pope
    « Reply #1 on: September 07, 2019, 04:36:58 PM »
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  • The more appropriate question might be....


    "Who was the last non-Jєωιѕн Pope?"








    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi


    Offline roscoe

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    Re: Sedes may consider Pius XII an anti-pope
    « Reply #2 on: September 07, 2019, 06:02:25 PM »
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  • The real question is WHO is the true Pope at this time? The anti-pope Frank?? LOL :confused:
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Sedes may consider Pius XII an anti-pope
    « Reply #3 on: September 07, 2019, 06:03:50 PM »
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  • http://www.traditio.com/comment/com1909.htm
    .
    Traditio.com has a lot of great info, and they are passionate sedevacantists, so visiting them every once and a while, you get a feel for what their flavor of sedevacantism is thinking.  For example, someone asked about their opinion on CMRI.  Overall, they approved of them, but included this little dig.
    .
    CMRI tries to justify its use of the Protestantized 1956 Holy Week by claiming that it occurred under Pius XII, whom they consider the last traditional pope (a contention that is coming under increasing scrutiny by traditional Catholics).
    .
    So now sedevacantists are ready to throw out Pope Pius XII's papacy?  Ha ha.  Where does it end?  Who was the last true pope?  Tune in next week to find out...
    Seriously? Except for a few wackos, no serious ”sedevacantist” holds that opinion. 
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Sedes may consider Pius XII an anti-pope
    « Reply #4 on: September 07, 2019, 07:59:06 PM »
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  • Some sedes believe J23 was a true pope.  Only a very few fringe people who are almost always home aloners believe Pope Pius XII was a manifest heretic.  There is no real evidence of it.  The arguments I have heard have to do with the fact that modernists infiltrated the hierarchy during his reign.  But even the Dimonds believe he was a true pope and if anyone should think he was a false pope I would think it would be anti-BOD folks who are not happy about the protocol sent to Cushing in 1949.


    Offline Maria Regina

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    Re: Sedes may consider Pius XII an anti-pope
    « Reply #5 on: September 08, 2019, 01:21:01 AM »
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  • Some sedes believe J23 was a true pope.  Only a very few fringe people who are almost always home aloners believe Pope Pius XII was a manifest heretic.  There is no real evidence of it.  The arguments I have heard have to do with the fact that modernists infiltrated the hierarchy during his reign.  But even the Dimonds believe he was a true pope and if anyone should think he was a false pope I would think it would be anti-BOD folks who are not happy about the protocol sent to Cushing in 1949.

    I have met some folks who cringe upon the mention of Pope Pius XII because they seem to be anti-Vatican I Old Catholics. They are heretics in their own way as many of them now accept ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ unions, women priests, and have joined with Episcopalians. Not surprisingly, these Old Catholics often celebrate services in the vernacular, although you will find some that celebrate the Latin Mass. Without a Pope, they have become their own pope. They tend to dislike Pius XII especially because:

    1) As a canon lawyer, the future Pope Pius XII worked on the Code of Canon Law of 1917, which changed canon law to be in conformance with Vatican I.

    2) As Pope, Pius XII changed the Latin Missal several times by adding Saints to the Church Calendar and by changing the Services during Holy Week, notably the Good Friday Services.

    3) As Pope, Pius XII allowed the Germans to celebrate the Mass in German during World War II. During that same war, the British also celebrated the Mass in the vernacular, notably the Jesuits, especially the heretic Teilhard de Chardin.

    4) As Pope, Pius XII issued the Encyclical Mystici Corporus, which established a Diocesan Liturgical Commission in every diocese. These diocesan liturgical commission encouraged the use of the vernacular in the Mass, and ultimately brought on Vatican II.

    and finally
    5) Didn't Pope Pius XII shortly before his death start the work to bring on Vatican II to complete the work of Vatican I?
    Lord have mercy.

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Sedes may consider Pius XII an anti-pope
    « Reply #6 on: September 08, 2019, 06:52:38 AM »
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  • I have met some folks who cringe upon the mention of Pope Pius XII because they seem to be anti-Vatican I Old Catholics. They are heretics in their own way as many of them now accept ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ unions, women priests, and have joined with Episcopalians. Not surprisingly, these Old Catholics often celebrate services in the vernacular, although you will find some that celebrate the Latin Mass. Without a Pope, they have become their own pope. They tend to dislike Pius XII especially because:

    1) As a canon lawyer, the future Pope Pius XII worked on the Code of Canon Law of 1917, which changed canon law to be in conformance with Vatican I.

    2) As Pope, Pius XII changed the Latin Missal several times by adding Saints to the Church Calendar and by changing the Services during Holy Week, notably the Good Friday Services.

    3) As Pope, Pius XII allowed the Germans to celebrate the Mass in German during World War II. During that same war, the British also celebrated the Mass in the vernacular, notably the Jesuits, especially the heretic Teilhard de Chardin.

    4) As Pope, Pius XII issued the Encyclical Mystici Corporus, which established a Diocesan Liturgical Commission in every diocese. These diocesan liturgical commission encouraged the use of the vernacular in the Mass, and ultimately brought on Vatican II.

    and finally
    5) Didn't Pope Pius XII shortly before his death start the work to bring on Vatican II to complete the work of Vatican I?
    Except for reason 1, why would the other reasons cause these heretics to “dislike” Pope Pius XII? It seems, from your fist paragraph, reasons 2-5 would be reasons why they would like him.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Sedes may consider Pius XII an anti-pope
    « Reply #7 on: September 08, 2019, 12:17:01 PM »
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  • 3) As Pope, Pius XII allowed the Germans to celebrate the Mass in German during World War II. During that same war, the British also celebrated the Mass in the vernacular, notably the Jesuits, especially the heretic Teilhard de Chardin.

    I've never heard this before.  Why did Pius XII allow Mass in the vernacular in Germany?  And did the British do this with permission, or without?  How widespread was it?


    Offline Maria Regina

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    Re: Sedes may consider Pius XII an anti-pope
    « Reply #8 on: September 08, 2019, 03:15:59 PM »
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  • I've never heard this before.  Why did Pius XII allow Mass in the vernacular in Germany?  And did the British do this with permission, or without?  How widespread was it?
    I do not know how widespread it was. However, I also heard that at Jesuit colleges here in the USA, the Mass was celebrated in the vernacular during the 1950s and early 1960s before it was even allowed. The Jesuits used the Latin missal English translations provided. This was done with permission of the various diocesan liturgical committees, especially those in San Francisco. Staff would produce mimeographed paper copies of the English Mass for those who did not have the Sunday Missals.

    I was living in the San Francisco Bay Area during the late 1950s and early to late 1960s. Our parish priest was quite the liberal and had Jesuit friends. He introduced the English Mass at our parish in 1960 before it was even allowed by the U.S. Bishops. Several other parishes also introduced it. We followed our Sunday Missals and used the English translation provided for the Latin Mass. The priest read all the parts of the Mass in English, and no one batted an eyelash. We all thought it was legit and was part of an attempt to help evangelize the youth who did not know Latin.

    Lord have mercy.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Sedes may consider Pius XII an anti-pope
    « Reply #9 on: September 08, 2019, 05:58:56 PM »
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  • http://www.traditio.com/comment/com1909.htm
    .
    Traditio.com has a lot of great info, and they are passionate sedevacantists, so visiting them every once and a while, you get a feel for what their flavor of sedevacantism is thinking.  For example, someone asked about their opinion on CMRI.  Overall, they approved of them, but included this little dig.
    .
    CMRI tries to justify its use of the Protestantized 1956 Holy Week by claiming that it occurred under Pius XII, whom they consider the last traditional pope (a contention that is coming under increasing scrutiny by traditional Catholics).
    .
    So now sedevacantists are ready to throw out Pope Pius XII's papacy?  Ha ha.  Where does it end?  Who was the last true pope?  Tune in next week to find out...

    That's a total nonsequitur.  They tend to blend a bit of R&R with sedevacantism, to the point that they wouldn't consider the 1956 Holy Week Rites to be protected by some kind of infallibility or necessarily under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.  They are not implying that he was not a pope but not a TRADITIONAL pope.  He was in fact a watershed pope who in many ways ushered in the Vatican II era.  I'm not a fan of Pius XII myself.  There have been bad popes and liberal popes who fell short of being heretics or enemy agent infiltrators.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Sedes may consider Pius XII an anti-pope
    « Reply #10 on: September 08, 2019, 09:18:14 PM »
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  • Quote
    They are not implying that he was not a pope but not a TRADITIONAL pope. 
    Ahh, ok I read that wrong.  My bad.  Glad they haven’t gone that far.  


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Sedes may consider Pius XII an anti-pope
    « Reply #11 on: September 08, 2019, 10:04:49 PM »
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  • Ahh, ok I read that wrong.  My bad.  Glad they haven’t gone that far.  

    I wouldn't rule it out someday, though, as they're pretty extreme.  They call John XXIII's Tridentine Rite "half" Novus Ordo.
    Quote
    Half Novus Ordo Vatican II Mess of 1962 (aka "Extraordinary") -- which is most certainly not the Traditional Latin Mass

    That's just a slight exaggeration, eh?

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Sedes may consider Pius XII an anti-pope
    « Reply #12 on: September 08, 2019, 10:16:38 PM »
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  • Traditio is an interesting case also.  For a while, they [aka he] avoided the sedevacantist conclusion [2002] --
    Quote
    Sedevacantism is a term used to describe the position of those who hold, as a personal opinion, that a particular pope has crossed the line into formal heresy, in which case under divine and ecclesiastical law he is no longer pope. TRADITIO has not reached this opinion, because there are other theological positions that can deal with an errant pope

    For the longest time, he would refer to the V2 papal claimants as "Pope" ... e.g. Pope Paul VI, Pope John Paul II.

    Then he shifted towards calling John Paul II .... John Paul II-Wojtyla, and regularly calls him Unsaint John Paul II.

    He's very favorable to most sedevacantists, and seems to lean strongly that way, but to my knowledge has not yet come out as openly sedevacantist.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Sedes may consider Pius XII an anti-pope
    « Reply #13 on: September 08, 2019, 10:21:04 PM »
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  • He constantly refers to the "Traditio Fathers", but there's no indication that anyone other than a single "Father" M.E. Morrison is behind it.  Early one someone had named a certain "Father" Adamson.  I put "Father" in quotes since he will not declare the source of his purported Holy Orders.  Some people think it's from the Duarte Costa line, others that they're from some Old Catholic group.

    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Sedes may consider Pius XII an anti-pope
    « Reply #14 on: September 08, 2019, 11:23:39 PM »
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  • I do not know how widespread it was. However, I also heard that at Jesuit colleges here in the USA, the Mass was celebrated in the vernacular during the 1950s and early 1960s before it was even allowed. The Jesuits used the Latin missal English translations provided. This was done with permission of the various diocesan liturgical committees, especially those in San Francisco. Staff would produce mimeographed paper copies of the English Mass for those who did not have the Sunday Missals.

    I was living in the San Francisco Bay Area during the late 1950s and early to late 1960s. Our parish priest was quite the liberal and had Jesuit friends. He introduced the English Mass at our parish in 1960 before it was even allowed by the U.S. Bishops. Several other parishes also introduced it. We followed our Sunday Missals and used the English translation provided for the Latin Mass. The priest read all the parts of the Mass in English, and no one batted an eyelash. We all thought it was legit and was part of an attempt to help evangelize the youth who did not know Latin.
    If only the changes in the liturgy had stopped at this.  If there was such a burning, unmet need to celebrate Mass in the vernacular, this is what should have been done.  I am not convinced there was such a need, but there are different schools of thought on this.  It is not beyond anyone of average intelligence to master enough Latin, and familiarity with it, to understand at least the gist of the Ordo Missae.