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Author Topic: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides  (Read 24098 times)

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Offline librorum

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Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
« Reply #240 on: January 02, 2024, 10:56:44 PM »
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  • If you read the whole docuмent, libro, you will see that the Church is telling us in Pastor Aeternus that this is the very meaning of the Extraordinary Magisterium - it is in this that the never failing faith of Peter consists, it is in this that the See of Peter is unblemished by error. That is exactly what the Council says, exactly! Not some imaginary idea that there is never any error in faith or morals in its teaching, but only under the very specific conditions that it defines. We just went through all this on another thread. Yes, it has always been preserved unblemished in its extraordinary magisterium, that is the privilege that Our Divine Lord willed it to have for that purpose. Check it out!
    But in ch 3 "on faith", the Council teaches:

    "[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]8. [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]Wherefore, [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]by divine and catholic faith all those things are to be believed [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]which are [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]contained[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] in the word of God as found in [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]scripture[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] and [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]tradition[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)][/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]and which are proposed by the [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]church[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] as matters to be believed as divinely revealed, [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]whether by her [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]solemn judgment [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]or in her [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]ordinary and universal[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] magisterium."[/color]

    So, we have to not only believe what is proposed by the Extraordinary Magisterium, but also by the Ordinary Magisterium. Which means it cannot err.

    Offline librorum

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #241 on: January 02, 2024, 11:36:05 PM »
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  • Sorry, don't know how to edit :facepalm:. It should read:

    "Wherefore, by divine and catholic faith all those things are to be believedwhich are contained in the word of God as found in scripture and tradition,and which are proposed by the church as matters to be believed as divinely revealed,whether by her solemn judgmentor in her ordinary and universal magisterium."


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #242 on: January 03, 2024, 06:23:19 AM »
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  • I retract my accusation that +P lied about the footnote. If you read what I wrote, I made my accusation of it being a lie conditional upon someone providing proof via a quote, which was provided.

    Just for the record, no sede here has retracted, nor do I expect they could get themselves to retract their accusation against me being a heretic and in heresy <--- that's only one example. Later I even posted what is essentially the exact same thing as I said, only in a lot more detail and much, much clearer, declared by +ABL to no avail whatsoever, instead +ABL was questioned as being wrong, which I can only give a giant facepalm to but there's not one big enough on this forum.

    So it's not a matter being thin or think skinned, it's a matter of truth. Lad and other sedes goes about spreading his/their false ideas as if they're Gospel - which are, to quote Pope Martin V "offensive to the ears of the devout."

    Just wanted to thank you for this.  None of us are perfect, but I do appreciate when others can apologize/admit they are wrong.  Not everyone is like that. 

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #243 on: January 03, 2024, 08:14:37 AM »
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  • I know I started this thread, but it's 17 pages long now.
    So here is my latest contribution:

    https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/response-to-all-the-sede-threads/
    Want to say "thank you"? 
    You can send me a gift from my Amazon wishlist!
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    My accounts (Paypal, Venmo) have been (((shut down))) PM me for how to donate and keep the forum going.

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #244 on: January 03, 2024, 08:36:12 PM »
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  • Sorry, don't know how to edit :facepalm:. It should read:

    "Wherefore, by divine and catholic faith all those things are to be believedwhich are contained in the word of God as found in scripture and tradition,and which are proposed by the church as matters to be believed as divinely revealed,whether by her solemn judgmentor in her ordinary and universal magisterium."
    We must understand things in the sense that they are meant, and this gives the sense: which are proposed by the church as matters to be believed as divinely revealed. Read it in the context of the whole, it removes all doubt.


    See also the thread I started on the infallible magisterium. Even look at the study of Cardinal Franzelin that one of your fellow sedes posted. The ordinary teaching of the Pope is not automatically guaranteed free from error.


    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #245 on: January 07, 2024, 05:22:28 PM »
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  • There are quite a few passages from St Robert that at the very least should make us hesitate to declare a Pope 'ipso facto' deposed because we see 'manifest heresy' as some understand his fifth and 'true opinion', and that is all I want to establish. Of course, other theologians have other opinions also about heretic popes and whether they can be deposed, and the Church has tolerated all these opinions, for example Suarez, Billuart, John of St Thomas... but we have been through this so many times.

    But here are a few considerations
    from St Robert that should at least make us hesitate before lopping off the Pope's head:

    1. ...the Roman Pontiff cannot be deprived of his right to summon Councils and preside over them... unless he were first convicted by the legitimate judgement of a Council and is not the Supreme Pontiff. Moreover... the supreme prince, as long as he is not declared or judged to have legitimately been deprived of his rule, is always the supreme judge, even if he litigates with himself as a party - On The Church, Vol I, On Councils, Ch XXI

    2. ...inferiors ought not be free from the obedience to superiors, unless first he were legitimately deposed or declared not to be a superior... Furthermore, it is impertinent because that oath does not take away the freedom of the bishops, which is necessary in Councils, for they swear they will be obedient to the supreme Pontiff, which is understood as long as he is Pope, and provided he commands these things which, according to God and the sacred canons he can command; but they do not swear that they are not going to say what they think in the Council, or that they are not going to depose him if they were to clearly prove that he is a heretic - Ibid

    3. ...whether or not it is lawful for a Council to be summoned by anyone other than the Pope when the Pope should not summon it, for the reason that he is a heretic or schismatic... To the second and third, I respond... in those two cases an imperfect Council could be gathered which would suffice to provide for the Church from the head. For the Church, without a doubt, has the authority to provide for itself from the head... Hence, that imperfect Council can happen, if either it is summoned by the college of Cardinals, or the bishops themselves come together in a place of themselves - Ibid, Ch XIV

    4. Two things can be considered on Bishops: Firstly, that they hold the place of Christ so for that reason we owe obedience to them... Secondly, that they might have the power of Order and Jurisdiction. If it is considered in the first mode, we are certain with an infallible certitude that these, whom we see, are our true Bishops and Pastors. For this, neither faith, nor the character of order, nor even legitimate election is required, but only that they be held for such by the Church... Now if this is considered in the second manner, we do not have any but a moral certitude that these will truly be Bishops, although it is certain with infallible certitude that at least some are true, otherwise God will have deserted the Church... - Ibid, On The Church Militant, Ch X

    5. ...we cannot depose catholic bishops who have possessed their sees for so many centuries peacefully, unless they are legitimately judged and condemned; for in every controversy, the condition of the one possessing it is better... - Ibid, On The Marks of the Church, Ch VII

    6. ...if the pastor is a bishop, they (the faithful) cannot depose him and put another in his place. For Our Lord and the Apostles only lay down that false prophets are not to be listened to by the people, and not that they depose them. And it is certain that the practice of the Church has always been that heretical bishops be deposed by bishop's councils, or by the Sovereign Pontiff...  - De Membris Ecclesiae, Lib I De Clericis, Cap 7 (Opera Omnia, Paris: Vives, 1870, pp 428-429). You will note that Bellarmine's proof from 'authority and reason' of his fifth opinion applies just the same to an heretical bishop. Manifest heresy renders you outside the Church whether you are a Pope, bishop, priest or layman. Yet the bishop is not ipso facto deposed?

    7. ...jurisdiction is certainly given to the Pontiff by God, but with the agreement of men, as is obvious; because this man who beforehand was not Pope, has from men that he would begin to be Pope, THEREFORE, he is not removed by God unless it is through men. - On The Roman Pontiff, Bk II Ch XXX, second opinion

    8. ...in the first place, it is proven with arguments from authority, and from reason, that the manifest heretic is “ipso facto” deposed. The argument from authority is based on Saint Paul, who orders that the heretic be avoided after two warnings, that is, after showing himself to be manifestly obstinate - Ibid, fourth opinion



    I am not certain about the context of the all the quotes you provided above, but no theologian holds that St. Robert Bellarmine's position is that "the Pope remains the supreme pastor until he is judged by the Church" (i.e., the Fourth Opinion).  Rather, apart from the First Opinion (which is the position he actually held), he held certain that a pope would fall "ipso facto" from office for manifest heresy, which is the Fifth Opinion.

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #246 on: January 10, 2024, 07:09:55 AM »
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  • Plenus Venter, in the video below, Fr. Chazal acknowledges that St. Robert Bellarmine teaches that manifest heresy results in ipso facto loss of office.  Start at about the 26 minutes mark.

    At about the 23 minutes mark, Fr. Chazal acknowledges that most authors hold that a true pope cannot be a formal heretic.  This is Opinion No. 1, which is the one that St. Robert Bellarmine truly held.  Now if Fr. Chazal held to these authors, then he would conclude that Jorge Bergoglio cannot be a true pope.  Here is the syllogism:

    A true pope cannot be a formal heretic.
    But Jorge Bergoglio is a formal heretic.
    Therefore, Jorge Bergoglio cannot be a true pope.

    From what I understand, Fr. Chazal currently holds Jorge Bergoglio to be a true pope, so he denies the major premise, which he admits is held by most authors.  Why, then, does he oppose most authors, including St. Robert Bellarmine, Doctor of the Church?

    Now this video is a bit outdated (February 2015), so perhaps Fr. Chazal has changed his position since then.  


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #247 on: January 10, 2024, 07:13:19 AM »
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  • Father Chazal leans toward the Cajetan / John of St. Thomas position, or, rather some synthesis of the two, since they're not identical.  He opens one of his talks by saying that the sedevacantists seem to hold that only St. Robert's opinion is legitimate, but the Church has not ruled on the matter.  He does have a point.

    He comes up with a position that ends up being very similar to sedeprivationism, and the one towards which I myself lean, in theory.  In practice, I don't believe these V2 papal claimants had even material claim to the papacy, because I am convinced of the so-called "Siri Theory".


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #248 on: January 10, 2024, 07:17:09 AM »
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  • I like this movie here (though I don't agree with everything in it):

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #249 on: January 10, 2024, 08:03:09 AM »
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  • Father Chazal leans toward the Cajetan / John of St. Thomas position, or, rather some synthesis of the two, since they're not identical.  He opens one of his talks by saying that the sedevacantists seem to hold that only St. Robert's opinion is legitimate, but the Church has not ruled on the matter.  He does have a point.

    He comes up with a position that ends up being very similar to sedeprivationism, and the one towards which I myself lean, in theory.  In practice, I don't believe these V2 papal claimants had even material claim to the papacy, because I am convinced of the so-called "Siri Theory".

    From your understanding, does Fr. Chazal hold that Jorge Bergoglio is a true pope (i.e., that Christ bestowed upon him the papal munus) or not?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #250 on: January 10, 2024, 08:16:24 AM »
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  • From your understanding, does Fr. Chazal hold that Jorge Bergoglio is a true pope (i.e., that Christ bestowed upon him the papal munus) or not?

    While he's never addressed that old munus thing, I would imagine he's say yes, that he has the munus, the office, but is incapable of exercising it due to manifest heresy.


    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #251 on: January 10, 2024, 08:36:36 AM »
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  • While he's never addressed that old munus thing, I would imagine he's say yes, that he has the munus, the office, but is incapable of exercising it due to manifest heresy.

    I agree with you, but there is a distinction to be made, that is, according to Fr. Chazal, Jorge Bergoglio is incapable of exercising the munus licitly because of his manifest heresy, but is capable nonetheless of exercising the munus validly.  This means that, according to Fr. Chazal, Jorge Bergoglio is capable, amongst other things, of defining as dogma a proposition of Divine Revelation and making it binding upon the Universal Church.

     

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #252 on: January 10, 2024, 08:55:18 AM »
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  • I agree with you, but there is a distinction to be made, that is, according to Fr. Chazal, Jorge Bergoglio is incapable of exercising the munus licitly because of his manifest heresy, but is capable nonetheless of exercising the munus validly.  This means that, according to Fr. Chazal, Jorge Bergoglio is capable, amongst other things, of defining as dogma a proposition of Divine Revelation and making it binding upon the Universal Church.

     

    No, according to Canon 2263, an ipso facto excommunicate (while in that state) is "removed from legitimate ecclesiastical acts." Meaning a Pope is not a "legitimate authority" while in a state of ipso facto excommunication.

    But his acts while in that excommunicated state could, in theory, become valid later if and only if he were to repent of his errors before he was formally condemned (Level 3 excommunication). So his "acts" are suspended awaiting resolution of the problem. In the meantime, we have no obligation to follow an ipso facto excommunicates dictates. Rather, we should ignore them.

    Of course, none of this applies to Bergoglio because he was not lawfully elected anyway, according to UDG. He is simply a usurper and should be expelled.

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #253 on: January 10, 2024, 09:06:42 AM »
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  • No, according to Canon 2263, an ipso facto excommunicate (while in that state) is "removed from legitimate ecclesiastical acts." Meaning a Pope is not a "legitimate authority" while in a state of ipso facto excommunication.

    But his acts while in that excommunicated state could, in theory, become valid later if and only if he were to repent of his errors before he was formally condemned (Level 3 excommunication). So his "acts" are suspended awaiting resolution of the problem. In the meantime, we have no obligation to follow an ipso facto excommunicates dictates. Rather, we should ignore them.

    Of course, none of this applies to Bergoglio because he was not lawfully elected anyway, according to UDG. He is simply a usurper and should be expelled.

    Angelus, are you stating that your position is the same as Fr. Chazal's position?

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #254 on: January 10, 2024, 09:30:04 AM »
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  • Angelus, are you stating that your position is the same as Fr. Chazal's position?

    What I mean is this:

    1. You stated "according to Fr. Chazal, Jorge Bergoglio is incapable of exercising the munus licitly because of his manifest heresy, but is capable nonetheless of exercising the munus validly."

    The above statement seems to agree in spirit with what I said about 1917 Canon Law. See timestamp 24:00 in the video that you posted. There Fr. Chazal seems to agree with 1917 Canon Law (on that point) as I read it: that the illicit acts of a heretic Pope CAN LATER be revived if he repents prior to his final condemnation (Level 3 Excommunication). And I explained how I understand how that would make sense according to the Canons. However, you are using phrases like "munus licitly" and "munus validly" which I cannot find in the Canons. The actual language of the Canons is different.

    2. 
    You then stated, "according to Fr. Chazal, Jorge Bergoglio is capable, amongst other things, of defining as dogma a proposition of Divine Revelation and making it binding upon the Universal Church." If Fr. Chazal said that, and he believes that Bergoglio could do that while in a state of ipso facto excommunication, it would seem to contradict Canon 2263 directly. Can you provide the direct quote from Fr. Chazal about that?