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Author Topic: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides  (Read 24092 times)

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Offline Quo vadis Domine

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Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
« Reply #225 on: January 01, 2024, 02:07:57 AM »
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  • To be honest, QVD, is it not you, rather, who needs to reconcile why the Archbishop so seriously considered the question of sedevacantism, yet never adopted that position and continued to advise against it? ABL even says here that he believes there is nothing worse that a Pope can do. Now that certainly demolishes the arguments of those who say "oh, but now things are so much worse, the Archbishop would certainly be a sede now"... just like Hank says above.

    No, I’ll pass. Although, the Archbishops was a great man, I never held him as a rule of faith as some posters on this forum seem to. 

    It is plainly evident from the Angelus article I posted that he was, at the very least, not opposed to sedevacantism, like you want your readers to believe. The Archbishop knew the principles involved and that a heretic could not be a pope, he was just waiting for evidence. Sadly, you want to spin his words to fit your narrative.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #226 on: January 01, 2024, 04:12:50 AM »
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  • No, I’ll pass. Although, the Archbishops was a great man, I never held him as a rule of faith as some posters on this forum seem to.

    It is plainly evident from the Angelus article I posted that he was, at the very least, not opposed to sedevacantism, like you want your readers to believe. The Archbishop knew the principles involved and that a heretic could not be a pope, he was just waiting for evidence. Sadly, you want to spin his words to fit your narrative.
    Here is the Archbishop years later in 1989:
    "It is a request of the Litany of the Saints, right? WE ASK TO KEEP THE POPE IN THE TRUE RELIGION. We ask that in the Litany of the Saints! This proves that sometimes it can happen that unfortunately, well, maybe sometimes it happens that... well  there have been hesitations, there are false steps, there are errors that are possible. We have too easily believed since Vatican I, that every word that comes from the mouth of the Pope is infallible. That was never said in Vatican I! The Council never said such a thing. Very specific conditions are required for the infallibility; very, very strict conditions... Then we must not keep this idea which is FALSE! which a number of Catholics, poorly instructed, poorly taught, believe! So obviously, we no longer understand anything, we are completely desperate, we do not know what to expect! We must keep the Catholic faith as the Church teaches it..." - Archbishop Lefebvre, Retreat at St-Michel en Brenne, April 1st, 1989

    Read 'Archbishop Lefebvre and the Vatican' - it is full of letters addressed "Most Holy Father", again, years after the article you cite.

    Here is what Pere Jean from the Morgon Franciscans wrote (He knew the Archbishop well, ABL was a Franciscan tertiary and often spent time at Morgon):
    “It is understandable that some Traditional Catholics... be deeply troubled by the scandals of Pope Francis, who seems to have surpassed his predecessors'. The sedevacantist solution may appear to them as the simplest, most logical, and best. In fact, the fundamental problem remains the same since the '70s, and the prudent attitude of Abp Lefebvre, in considering the risk of excessive and rash judgement, with the attendant danger of schism, should not be abandoned. In 2001, the “Small Catechism on Sedevacantism” published by Le Sel de la Terre concluded: “This is a position that has not been proven at the speculative level, and it is imprudent to hold it at a practical level, an imprudence that can bear very serious consequences.” (No. 36, p. 117) This conclusion holds as much for Pope Francis as for Pope John-Paul II who had kissed the Quran.

    These are just a few examples immediately to hand which testify to the well known conclusion of the Archbishop on this matter. It is rather touching though to see so many sedes so esteeming this great man of the Church that they want to claim him as their own. I get that!



    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #227 on: January 01, 2024, 05:23:16 AM »
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  • It seems both sides could say the same thing, so I don't think it's fair for you to point fingers at the sedes as if it never happens on the non-sede side.  All one needs to look at is the recent "Old Catholic" thread for proof of that...including name calling, false assertions, etc. 

    I personally have always tried to refrain from false assertions and the name-calling whether it's just a rude name or names like "heretic" or "schismatic" (although I'm sure I'm not completely innocent in that regard).  Having said that, I think it's reasonable for someone to write that they believe someone holds "heretical beliefs" or is "objectively schismatic" without that being considered name calling.

    And while I'm at it, I am still disturbed that you have not retracted your accusation that Bishop Pivarunas lied about the cuм Ex footnote in the 1917 CCL. 
    I retract my accusation that +P lied about the footnote. If you read what I wrote, I made my accusation of it being a lie conditional upon someone providing proof via a quote, which was provided.

    Just for the record, no sede here has retracted, nor do I expect they could get themselves to retract their accusation against me being a heretic and in heresy <--- that's only one example. Later I even posted what is essentially the exact same thing as I said, only in a lot more detail and much, much clearer, declared by +ABL to no avail whatsoever, instead +ABL was questioned as being wrong, which I can only give a giant facepalm to but there's not one big enough on this forum.

    So it's not a matter being thin or think skinned, it's a matter of truth. Lad and other sedes goes about spreading his/their false ideas as if they're Gospel - which are, to quote Pope Martin V "offensive to the ears of the devout."
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #228 on: January 01, 2024, 07:58:28 AM »
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  • Sedevacantism without "conclavism" is completely useless and superfluous.

    It's like after a complete collapse scenario (no grid electricity, Internet, public utilities anywhere), a complete Mad Max scenario, having some survivors "pro Internet" and others being "anti Internet". Now if a group of survivors was trying to actively rebuild electronics and computers from the ground up, and actively working to rebuild the Internet, that would be something. But that would be the equivalent of "conclavist sedevacantism".

    At least the conclavists are consistent, and giving some MEANING to their sedevacantism. They are trying to "do something about it". To bring the theory into the practical realm, so it has SOME relevance or reason to actually hold the position.

    My position is that sedevacantism, unless you add conclavism, is no better and usually worse than "plain vanilla" Traditional Catholicism. It adds nothing, and solves nothing. All it adds is another point of division, another reason for parishioners to stay home on Sunday when there's not a "sede" group chapel within driving distance.

    Yes, many sedes are more practical than that (they aren't "dogmatic" about it; they are willing to attend SSPX for example) but why start a movement like "sedevacantism" when a certain percent are going to be dogmatic about it (unnecessarily divisive and condemnatory) and/or end up Home Aloners?

    Zero upsides, nothing but downsides!

    Would you take a medicine that has no chance of helping you with anything, but has a 30% chance of killing you? Neither would I.

    Bishop Pivarunas answers Matthews objection under objection 3 of Answering Objections to the Sede Vacante position. I have posted all the objections and answers from Bishop Pivarunas (with opportunity of expanding on those if necessary) here
    https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/answering-objections-to-the-sedevacantist-position-72981/
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #229 on: January 01, 2024, 12:40:09 PM »
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  • No, I’ll pass. Although, the Archbishops was a great man, I never held him as a rule of faith as some posters on this forum seem to.

    It is plainly evident from the Angelus article I posted that he was, at the very least, not opposed to sedevacantism, like you want your readers to believe. The Archbishop knew the principles involved and that a heretic could not be a pope, he was just waiting for evidence. Sadly, you want to spin his words to fit your narrative.

    You know what? That's a VERY good point. So good of a point, that I want to turn this into a new thread.

    Ok, let's say the Archbishop was providentially prepared by God to de-facto lead the Traditional Movement for many years, start the SSPX, etc. This much is simply a matter of history. If you read his biography, it's clear he was arranged by God to help so many Catholics into lifeboats so they could survive (keep the Faith).

    But you're right -- the Archbishop died in 1991. Would he have become Sedevacantist? We honestly don't know.

    But here's the point: I (and others) adhered to the SSPX because they were the most Catholic position, blessed by God, with good fruit, not going an ounce further than they had to, in their resistance/opposition to Modernism and the new man-made Conciliar Church. It was the safest place to park your Faith during the Crisis in the Church, and +ABL was clearly providential, so he was a good man to follow.

    But today, aside from following the same line (today it would be the Resistance, as the neo-SSPX is closer to the FSSP now than to the classic SSPX position), what obviously providential figure is there to trust or follow?

    No one. There is no sedevacantist individual OR group which screams "God is here", or "this is where you should leave (wherever you are right now) and get your butt over here, because HERE is the safest/best place to keep the Faith during this Crisis in the Church."
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    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #230 on: January 01, 2024, 03:09:49 PM »
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  • And even if you call this Pope a formal heretic, is it absolutely certain that he can therefore be deposed? Does the Church have an infallible teaching on this, or any teaching whatsoever?

    Yes.

    "That heresy, apostasy, and schism.....according to their very nature constitute defection from the faith or from communion with the Church, and accordingly sever a man from the body of the Church by themselves, apart from any human law, and therefore without any judgment or censure by ecclesiastical authority, must be believed with divine and Catholic faith. It is plainly set forth and proven by Bellarmine that it is the unanimous teaching of the Fathers interpreting scripture, that heresy in its very nature not only severs one from the Church, but also directly brings about the loss of ecclesiastical office before and even without any judgment of the Church; and being the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, it must be believed de fide."
    (Kramer, Paul. To deceive the elect: The catholic doctrine on the question of a heretical Pope . Kindle Edition.)

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #231 on: January 01, 2024, 10:33:50 PM »
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  • Yes.

    "That heresy, apostasy, and schism.....according to their very nature constitute defection from the faith or from communion with the Church, and accordingly sever a man from the body of the Church by themselves, apart from any human law, and therefore without any judgment or censure by ecclesiastical authority, must be believed with divine and Catholic faith. It is plainly set forth and proven by Bellarmine that it is the unanimous teaching of the Fathers interpreting scripture, that heresy in its very nature not only severs one from the Church, but also directly brings about the loss of ecclesiastical office before and even without any judgment of the Church; and being the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, it must be believed de fide."
    (Kramer, Paul. To deceive the elect: The catholic doctrine on the question of a heretical Pope . Kindle Edition.)
    Why then does St Robert Bellarmine say that the Pope remains the supreme pastor until he is judged and declared by the Council?
    You see, CK, this is the problem with the sede position, it just does away with all doubt, all contrary opinions, and declares certainty where there is none. A whole stack of theologians differ from St Robert, yet again, they just lack credibility according to you or Fr K or someone else, which basically comes down to you or Fr K or someone else setting yourself up as Pope in the matter and settling the matter when the Church never has. The book title should be "Fr Kramer's non-Catholic doctrine on the question of a heretical Pope"

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #232 on: January 01, 2024, 11:13:58 PM »
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  • Why then does St Robert Bellarmine say that the Pope remains the supreme pastor until he is judged and declared by the Council?
    You see, CK, this is the problem with the sede position, it just does away with all doubt, all contrary opinions, and declares certainty where there is none. A whole stack of theologians differ from St Robert, yet again, they just lack credibility according to you or Fr K or someone else, which basically comes down to you or Fr K or someone else setting yourself up as Pope in the matter and settling the matter when the Church never has. The book title should be "Fr Kramer's non-Catholic doctrine on the question of a heretical Pope"

    Interesting…..

    Now, can you please provide the quote from Saint Robert with reference.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #233 on: January 02, 2024, 06:26:40 AM »
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  • Interesting…..

    Now, can you please provide the quote from Saint Robert with reference.
    There are quite a few passages from St Robert that at the very least should make us hesitate to declare a Pope 'ipso facto' deposed because we see 'manifest heresy' as some understand his fifth and 'true opinion', and that is all I want to establish. Of course, other theologians have other opinions also about heretic popes and whether they can be deposed, and the Church has tolerated all these opinions, for example Suarez, Billuart, John of St Thomas... but we have been through this so many times.

    But here are a few considerations
    from St Robert that should at least make us hesitate before lopping off the Pope's head:

    1. ...the Roman Pontiff cannot be deprived of his right to summon Councils and preside over them... unless he were first convicted by the legitimate judgement of a Council and is not the Supreme Pontiff. Moreover... the supreme prince, as long as he is not declared or judged to have legitimately been deprived of his rule, is always the supreme judge, even if he litigates with himself as a party - On The Church, Vol I, On Councils, Ch XXI

    2. ...inferiors ought not be free from the obedience to superiors, unless first he were legitimately deposed or declared not to be a superior... Furthermore, it is impertinent because that oath does not take away the freedom of the bishops, which is necessary in Councils, for they swear they will be obedient to the supreme Pontiff, which is understood as long as he is Pope, and provided he commands these things which, according to God and the sacred canons he can command; but they do not swear that they are not going to say what they think in the Council, or that they are not going to depose him if they were to clearly prove that he is a heretic - Ibid

    3. ...whether or not it is lawful for a Council to be summoned by anyone other than the Pope when the Pope should not summon it, for the reason that he is a heretic or schismatic... To the second and third, I respond... in those two cases an imperfect Council could be gathered which would suffice to provide for the Church from the head. For the Church, without a doubt, has the authority to provide for itself from the head... Hence, that imperfect Council can happen, if either it is summoned by the college of Cardinals, or the bishops themselves come together in a place of themselves - Ibid, Ch XIV

    4. Two things can be considered on Bishops: Firstly, that they hold the place of Christ so for that reason we owe obedience to them... Secondly, that they might have the power of Order and Jurisdiction. If it is considered in the first mode, we are certain with an infallible certitude that these, whom we see, are our true Bishops and Pastors. For this, neither faith, nor the character of order, nor even legitimate election is required, but only that they be held for such by the Church... Now if this is considered in the second manner, we do not have any but a moral certitude that these will truly be Bishops, although it is certain with infallible certitude that at least some are true, otherwise God will have deserted the Church... - Ibid, On The Church Militant, Ch X

    5. ...we cannot depose catholic bishops who have possessed their sees for so many centuries peacefully, unless they are legitimately judged and condemned; for in every controversy, the condition of the one possessing it is better... - Ibid, On The Marks of the Church, Ch VII

    6. ...if the pastor is a bishop, they (the faithful) cannot depose him and put another in his place. For Our Lord and the Apostles only lay down that false prophets are not to be listened to by the people, and not that they depose them. And it is certain that the practice of the Church has always been that heretical bishops be deposed by bishop's councils, or by the Sovereign Pontiff...  - De Membris Ecclesiae, Lib I De Clericis, Cap 7 (Opera Omnia, Paris: Vives, 1870, pp 428-429). You will note that Bellarmine's proof from 'authority and reason' of his fifth opinion applies just the same to an heretical bishop. Manifest heresy renders you outside the Church whether you are a Pope, bishop, priest or layman. Yet the bishop is not ipso facto deposed?

    7. ...jurisdiction is certainly given to the Pontiff by God, but with the agreement of men, as is obvious; because this man who beforehand was not Pope, has from men that he would begin to be Pope, THEREFORE, he is not removed by God unless it is through men. - On The Roman Pontiff, Bk II Ch XXX, second opinion

    8. ...in the first place, it is proven with arguments from authority, and from reason, that the manifest heretic is “ipso facto” deposed. The argument from authority is based on Saint Paul, who orders that the heretic be avoided after two warnings, that is, after showing himself to be manifestly obstinate - Ibid, fourth opinion






    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #234 on: January 02, 2024, 06:51:13 AM »
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  • Why then does St Robert Bellarmine say that the Pope remains the supreme pastor until he is judged and declared by the Council?

    Where does he state this?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #235 on: January 02, 2024, 11:00:32 AM »
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  • But here are a few considerations
    from St Robert that should at least make us hesitate before lopping off the Pope's head:

    Sure, but it's OK to lop off the head of the Catholic Church.  This is not about Jorge or his predecessors.  If Jorge were going around spewing heresy on his papal plane or in interviews with Scalfari, I could hardly care less and would let the Cardinals deal with him.

    You keep quibbling about the "5 Opinions" when NONE of the 5 Opinions held that the Pope could become a heretic as Pope, i.e. that he could teach error to the Church.  They all discuss Pope "as private person".

    More missing the forest for the trees, focusing on the "5 Opinions" (what Avrille called the a priori arguments for sedevacantism, but they're really a list of possible explanations for the how/why) and quibbling about the precise limits of infallibility.  Those are both distractions from the core problem which you keep dodging by continuing to bring everyone's focus down on the trees (into arguments that we'll never resolve here).

    I keep trying to point out, "Look at the forest.  It's rotten." but you ignore that perspective and keep responding by saying, "No, look at this tree and that tree.  I see a piece of bark here."


    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #236 on: January 02, 2024, 06:58:47 PM »
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  • Where does he state this?
    Immediately above your post I provided some references.

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #237 on: January 02, 2024, 07:14:13 PM »
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  • Sure, but it's OK to lop off the head of the Catholic Church.  This is not about Jorge or his predecessors.  If Jorge were going around spewing heresy on his papal plane or in interviews with Scalfari, I could hardly care less and would let the Cardinals deal with him.

    You keep quibbling about the "5 Opinions" when NONE of the 5 Opinions held that the Pope could become a heretic as Pope, i.e. that he could teach error to the Church.  They all discuss Pope "as private person".

    More missing the forest for the trees, focusing on the "5 Opinions" (what Avrille called the a priori arguments for sedevacantism, but they're really a list of possible explanations for the how/why) and quibbling about the precise limits of infallibility.  Those are both distractions from the core problem which you keep dodging by continuing to bring everyone's focus down on the trees (into arguments that we'll never resolve here).

    I keep trying to point out, "Look at the forest.  It's rotten." but you ignore that perspective and keep responding by saying, "No, look at this tree and that tree.  I see a piece of bark here."
    Yes, Ladislaus, I do understand what you are saying. I'm not focusing on the tree, I do see the woods. Archbishop Lefebvre saw the woods from afar better than anyone. However, I think you are trying to say too much, it is not in any way certain that a Pope cannot be a heretic and promote heresy through the Ordinary Magisterium.

    If you read Dom Paul Nau's study, he talks about the intention manifested by the Pope in his teaching which determines whether or not he is teaching as a private person, rather than the mode of teaching, such as a radio interview, an encyclical, a Wednesday allocution, etc. I get the same impression reading past theologians, opposing private teaching to infallible teaching. Am I wrong here? Maybe.

    I don't doubt that you are right that St Robert Bellarmine was not envisaging, in his five opinions, a situation like we currently have in the Church. Let's face it, he didn't even believe that the Pope would or could fall into heresy. And yet his is only an opinion. We can't lop off the head of the Pope so easily it seems to me, the Church has never made certain these teachings, whether it is regarding the magisterium, or the heretic pope...

    Nothing has substantially changed with this current Pope, I don't believe, let us continue to observe the prudence of Archbishop Lefebvre. Maybe the African Cardinals will now join ranks with Archbishop Vigano and bring the Pope to account... I shudder to imagine the consequences if such a thing happened, I think the Good Lord will wait for more opportune times following upon a chastisement to give us a truly Catholic Pope for His greater glory and the greatest salvation of souls.


    Offline librorum

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #238 on: January 02, 2024, 09:26:44 PM »
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  • Yes, Ladislaus, I do understand what you are saying. I'm not focusing on the tree, I do see the woods. Archbishop Lefebvre saw the woods from afar better than anyone. However, I think you are trying to say too much, it is not in any way certain that a Pope cannot be a heretic and promote heresy through the Ordinary Magisterium.

    If you read Dom Paul Nau's study, he talks about the intention manifested by the Pope in his teaching which determines whether or not he is teaching as a private person, rather than the mode of teaching, such as a radio interview, an encyclical, a Wednesday allocution, etc. I get the same impression reading past theologians, opposing private teaching to infallible teaching. Am I wrong here? Maybe.

    I don't doubt that you are right that St Robert Bellarmine was not envisaging, in his five opinions, a situation like we currently have in the Church. Let's face it, he didn't even believe that the Pope would or could fall into heresy. And yet his is only an opinion. We can't lop off the head of the Pope so easily it seems to me, the Church has never made certain these teachings, whether it is regarding the magisterium, or the heretic pope...

    Nothing has substantially changed with this current Pope, I don't believe, let us continue to observe the prudence of Archbishop Lefebvre. Maybe the African Cardinals will now join ranks with Archbishop Vigano and bring the Pope to account... I shudder to imagine the consequences if such a thing happened, I think the Good Lord will wait for more opportune times following upon a chastisement to give us a truly Catholic Pope for His greater glory and the greatest salvation of souls.

    PV, you've said "it is not in any way certain that a Pope cannot be a heretic and promote heresy through the Ordinary Magisterium."

    And: "the Church has never made certain these teachings, whether it is regarding the magisterium, or the heretic pope..."

    But Vatican I teaches the following:

    "For in the apostolic see the catholic religion has always been preserved unblemished, and sacred doctrine been held in honour."

    And:

    "this see of St. Peter always remains unblemished by any error, in accordance with the divine promise of our Lord and Saviour to the prince of his disciples"

    And:

    "This gift of truth and never-failing faith was therefore divinely conferred on Peter and his successors in this see so that they might discharge their exalted office for the salvation of all, and so that the whole flock of Christ might be kept away by them from the poisonous food of error and be nourished with the sustenance of heavenly doctrine"

    https://www.papalencyclicals.net/councils/ecuм20.htm

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #239 on: January 02, 2024, 09:59:16 PM »
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  • PV, you've said "it is not in any way certain that a Pope cannot be a heretic and promote heresy through the Ordinary Magisterium."

    And: "the Church has never made certain these teachings, whether it is regarding the magisterium, or the heretic pope..."

    But Vatican I teaches the following:

    "For in the apostolic see the catholic religion has always been preserved unblemished, and sacred doctrine been held in honour."

    And:

    "this see of St. Peter always remains unblemished by any error, in accordance with the divine promise of our Lord and Saviour to the prince of his disciples"

    And:

    "This gift of truth and never-failing faith was therefore divinely conferred on Peter and his successors in this see so that they might discharge their exalted office for the salvation of all, and so that the whole flock of Christ might be kept away by them from the poisonous food of error and be nourished with the sustenance of heavenly doctrine"

    https://www.papalencyclicals.net/councils/ecuм20.htm
    If you read the whole docuмent, libro, you will see that the Church is telling us in Pastor Aeternus that this is the very meaning of the Extraordinary Magisterium - it is in this that the never failing faith of Peter consists, it is in this that the See of Peter is unblemished by error. That is exactly what the Council says, exactly! Not some imaginary idea that there is never any error in faith or morals in its teaching, but only under the very specific conditions that it defines. We just went through all this on another thread. Yes, it has always been preserved unblemished in its extraordinary magisterium, that is the privilege that Our Divine Lord willed it to have for that purpose. Check it out!