Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides  (Read 24220 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline TheRealMcCoy

  • Supporter
  • ***
  • Posts: 1442
  • Reputation: +1079/-228
  • Gender: Female
  • The Thread Killer
Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
« Reply #210 on: December 31, 2023, 12:41:21 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • What more does Bergoglio have to do to prove to you R&R people that he is not The Vicar of Christ/The Living Rule Of Faith on Earth?? 
    Give up the white clothes? 🤣

    Offline Catholic Knight

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 802
    • Reputation: +238/-82
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #211 on: December 31, 2023, 02:15:48 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • Now you need to reconcile what *you want* to believe of the Archbishop to what he actually said regarding the pope-heretic question:

    Thank you for these two pages.  I have the interviews, but not from the original Angelus hard media magazine. 

    The Archbishop taught that whether a man is pope or not is based on the evidence.  He did not teach some universal principle that a putative pope must be accepted as pope until the Church declares otherwise.


    Offline Catholic Knight

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 802
    • Reputation: +238/-82
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #212 on: December 31, 2023, 02:23:37 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • The reason why the leaders of the SSPX and the leaders of the Resistance (e.g. +Williamson) will never proclaim sede vacante is because they know they will lose more than 80% of their parishioners and fellow clergy if they did so.

    My opinion (at least one of them) as to why the Resistance hesitates to proclaim sede vacante is that the bishops and priests are so used to tolerating bad popes that when an evident public manifest formal heretic comes around their previous toleration blinds them in seeing the difference.

    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 47051
    • Reputation: +27879/-5190
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #213 on: December 31, 2023, 04:56:12 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • Now you need to reconcile what *you want* to believe of the Archbishop to what he actually said regarding the pope-heretic question:

    For anyone who's honest, the object truth of the matter is that Archbishop Lefebvre, with the exception of a period in the early 1980s where he was seeking a practical arrangement with Rome to make the "experiment of Tradition", was always open to the possibility of sedevacantism.

    He also stated clearly that the Holy Ghost's protection over the papacy (as taught also by Vatican I) would preclude this degree of destruction.  He hesitated to unequivocally affirm sedevacantism because he could not in his mind definitively (and with the certainty of faith) rule out some other possible explanation for how this happened.  But he upheld the principle that the R&R here are now denying while claiming to be the "faithful heirs" of Archbishop Lefebvre.

    Plenus in particular here pretends to speak for the Archbishop, creating his own sock puppet version of the Archbishop that he pretends is regurgitating the same stuff that he is posting here.  But the real Archbishop was open to sedevacantism, did NOT consider it a "danger to souls" (except, as I said, in the early 1980s), and affirmed the principle that the Holy Spirit protects the papacy from this kind of destruction.

    Plenus also pretends to speak for the Resistance ("the Resistance hold that sedevacantism is a danger to souls").  Well, Bishop Williamson has said that it's possible Jorge's not the pope and also has said that it's quite understandable why someone would hold that he isn't.  Avrille also said that it's understandable.  Father Chazal stated that +Vigano is a Resistance bishop (at least in spirit) ... after the latter declared it to be morally certain that Jorge is not the Pope.  I should think I'd listen to Bishop Williamson, Avrille, and Father Chazal regarding what "the Resistance" hold rather than to Plenus.

    So Plenus is misappropriating Archbishop Lefebvre AND making claims about what the Resistance hold that don't stand up to reality ... based on his wishful thinking that they support his position.  They do not.

    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 47051
    • Reputation: +27879/-5190
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #214 on: December 31, 2023, 05:00:27 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • My opinion (at least one of them) as to why the Resistance hesitates to proclaim sede vacante is that the bishops and priests are so used to tolerating bad popes that when an evident public manifest formal heretic comes around their previous toleration blinds them in seeing the difference.

    There was a lot of bad blood between Bishop Williamson and The Nine in the early 1980s.  Bishop Williamson was sent in by +Lefebvre to be the enforcer to deal with The Nine problem.  I think it was the entire episode with the Nine that turned a lot of SSPX and former SSPX into intransigent enemies of sedevacantism in principle, and it's been difficult for them to shake that.


    Offline Quo vadis Domine

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 4750
    • Reputation: +2897/-667
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #215 on: December 31, 2023, 06:16:17 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • There was a lot of bad blood between Bishop Williamson and The Nine in the early 1980s.  Bishop Williamson was sent in by +Lefebvre to be the enforcer to deal with The Nine problem.  I think it was the entire episode with the Nine that turned a lot of SSPX and former SSPX into intransigent enemies of sedevacantism in principle, and it's been difficult for them to shake that.


    What’s funny is that several years ago Bishop Williamson and Bishop Sanborn were together at someone’s house and had a fairly long discussion, I think.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 4750
    • Reputation: +2897/-667
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #216 on: December 31, 2023, 06:26:46 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Thank you for these two pages.  I have the interviews, but not from the original Angelus hard media magazine.

    The Archbishop taught that whether a man is pope or not is based on the evidence.  He did not teach some universal principle that a putative pope must be accepted as pope until the Church declares otherwise.


    Here is the whole article:
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Catholic Knight

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 802
    • Reputation: +238/-82
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #217 on: December 31, 2023, 06:39:28 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • Here is the whole article:

    Thank you so much for your generosity!  God bless you!


    Offline librorum

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 13
    • Reputation: +12/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #218 on: December 31, 2023, 07:15:21 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Do you have those references?
    Canons 167, 188,  218,  373,  1435,  1556,  1657,  1757,  2198,  2209,  2264,  2294,  2314,  and  2316.

    Offline librorum

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 13
    • Reputation: +12/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #219 on: December 31, 2023, 07:51:44 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • Thank you, lurker librorum, and those references are definitely a part of the original code as published by the Holy See?
    What do you make of that, if anything at all?
    Codex iuris canonici Benedicti Papae XV, 1918

    https://archive.org/details/codex_iuris_canonici_1918-benedicti_papae_xv/page/n7/mode/2up

    Offline librorum

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 13
    • Reputation: +12/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #220 on: December 31, 2023, 07:58:08 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • Incidentally, on page 51 of his Contra Cekadam, Fr Chazal writes:

    "Some sedevacantists argue that cuм ex is mentioned in a footnote of the Code, yet, so far, no edition of the Pio-Benedictine code having such a footnote has ever been shown to me."

    I'm not sure if he's seen that edition of the Code, but there it is.


    Offline Plenus Venter

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1584
    • Reputation: +1289/-100
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #221 on: December 31, 2023, 11:28:20 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Incidentally, on page 51 of his Contra Cekadam, Fr Chazal writes:

    "Some sedevacantists argue that cuм ex is mentioned in a footnote of the Code, yet, so far, no edition of the Pio-Benedictine code having such a footnote has ever been shown to me."

    I'm not sure if he's seen that edition of the Code, but there it is.
    Good work, librorum, I've just sent Fr Chazal a link to this post.

    Offline Plenus Venter

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1584
    • Reputation: +1289/-100
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #222 on: December 31, 2023, 11:35:17 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • My opinion (at least one of them) as to why the Resistance hesitates to proclaim sede vacante is that the bishops and priests are so used to tolerating bad popes that when an evident public manifest formal heretic comes around their previous toleration blinds them in seeing the difference.
    What I want to know, CK, is when you and Hank are going to give us a Pope and stop waiting around for a non Catholic sect to give you a 'true Pope'. Seriously, though, what is the answer to that?

    And even if you call this Pope a formal heretic, is it absolutely certain that he can therefore be deposed? Does the Church have an infallible teaching on this, or any teaching whatsoever?

    Offline Plenus Venter

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1584
    • Reputation: +1289/-100
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #223 on: December 31, 2023, 11:39:48 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • Now you need to reconcile what *you want* to believe of the Archbishop to what he actually said regarding the pope-heretic question:
    To be honest, QVD, is it not you, rather, who needs to reconcile why the Archbishop so seriously considered the question of sedevacantism, yet never adopted that position and continued to advise against it? ABL even says here that he believes there is nothing worse that a Pope can do. Now that certainly demolishes the arguments of those who say "oh, but now things are so much worse, the Archbishop would certainly be a sede now"... just like Hank says above.

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 4750
    • Reputation: +2897/-667
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #224 on: January 01, 2024, 01:56:38 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Canons 167, 188,  218,  373,  1435,  1556,  1657,  1757,  2198,  2209,  2264,  2294,  2314,  and  2316.


    Thank you!
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?