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Author Topic: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides  (Read 24110 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
« Reply #195 on: December 31, 2023, 04:41:15 AM »
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  • Nice out! :facepalm:
    Directly after me making two posts on the Church's indefectibility, you ask what I thought about the Church's indefectibility, says all I need to know about your malevolent intentions.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #196 on: December 31, 2023, 04:48:03 AM »
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  • Firstly Stubborn, it’s very arrogant to assume you know the experience of other posters on this forum. You are completely delusional, dishonest and disrespectful. My Cath Info account alone is 10 years old. My first SSPX Mass was in 1985, which started in a hotel. I have never been to a Novus Ordo Mass. I have attended Masses all over the country and the Americas. I was for a time a regular attendee of St. Thomas Aquinas Seminary in Winona where I received guidance from some of the best SSPX priests in the country. I’ve visited SSPX chapels in Guatemala and El Salvador. I’ve personally known and befriended several bishops. My wedding was performed by a resistance bishop. I’ve spent hours on buses chatting with Bishop Williamson. I’ve also had many conversations and opportunities to meet with sede bishops, including Bishop Dolan and Bishop Pivarunas. A now sede bishop was a lay brother at my wedding. In the early days of the resistance, I assisted the resistance with many translations between Spanish, Portuguese and English.

    That’s a lot more than some “dip pop with 5 or ten years in this crisis”.
    I didn’t just wake up one day and say “you know what, I feel like making divisions among all my lifelong friends and family by accepting a position contrary to theirs”. No. I arrived at the conclusion of sede vacante through constant reading and ruminating upon the crisis in the Church.
    No, what's arrogant an full of pride is to accuse me of calling cuм ex BS, never thinking that I was referring to, and explained that I was referring to your words around the citation. That's arrogant and prideful to think your words are above cuм ex.

    So you're an even worse case then I thought - not surprising for one who, initially at least, knew better. You are another one who listened to the wrong voices when you should have bewared. Now look at you.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #197 on: December 31, 2023, 04:51:47 AM »
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  • I actually like him and agree with him on many issues, but I can’t tolerate his stubbornness and especially his promotion of unorthodox ideas. Unfortunately, he has made himself the arbiter of tradition and has, in his own mind, made the papacy superfluous, he has in reality become his own pope.
    My unorthodox ideas are based on this, which you call heresy, say makes me my own pope.

    Will you ever retract the lie?
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #198 on: December 31, 2023, 05:17:58 AM »
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  • In an effort to keep the debate in one thread.....

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men."  [Acts Of Apostles 5:29]

    Quote
    Quote:
    Yikes, this "obey God rather than man" stuff is scary non-Catholic thinking.  When a Pope teaching, he's acting as Christ's Vicar.  This is not about Jorge spewing nonsense on his pope-plane or in an interview with Scalfari, but about the man you claim to be the Vicar of Christ teaching with the authority of St. Peter, which is the authority of Christ.

    So, is this an absolute statement?  Old Catholics decided they were obeying God rather than man in rejecting papal infallibility as contrary to Tradition.  Were they obeying God rather than man also?  If so, how can you find fault with them?  On what basis?

    Let those who claim this maxim applies to Papal authority explain why the Old Catholics were wrong.  This should be interesting.
    Here we have the typical sede error. The error is in his denying the very meaning of the Scripture, using the very words of St. Peter Himself to do it, to prove that what St. Peter [the first pope] does not apply to popes. 

    Rather than believe St. Peter as we are supposed to, he uses St. Peter's words in his effort to prove Christ's Vicar is something other or more than a man - because he's Christ's Vicar, not a man. Never considering that it is the [first] pope himself who is professing that Scripture. Which is to say to misinterpret that Scripture the way he is, St. Peter is making himself out to be something other than a man, which is absurd. This is Catholic thinking? I call it out as BS.

    This post of his is the heresy and not one sede called him out on it. Why? Because sedeism.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #199 on: December 31, 2023, 05:29:57 AM »
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  • My unorthodox ideas are based on this, which you call heresy, say makes me my own pope.

    Will you ever retract the lie?

    Is it possible that the Archbishop was wrong or even that your understanding of him is incorrect?

     The Archbishop should not be the absolute standard on which you base your understanding of tradition on.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #200 on: December 31, 2023, 07:09:18 AM »
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  • 2V, I consider you a very special, a very blessed Catholic in the eyes of God who got bitten by the sede bug. I feel certain those who were raised, shall we just say, outside of the Church, received many, many - and extra special graces to get you into the Church. IOW, you are one who is extra, extra special to God.....for reasons only He knows. I believe this, always have and always will.

    You take offense when sedes get slammed, well, I take offense when sedes intentionally, and not intentionally lie about reasons non-sedes are not sede, that we are heretics and the like - then completely ignore explanations and refutations as they just stay the course of their BS - this is what I am calling out as BS.

    I've been in this my whole life and have remained as I am for many reasons, but I think mainly from seeing what happens to others who've changed - always ends up being for the worse. So when some dip pops in who has experienced a whole 5 or 10 years of this crisis and starts spouting BS against Catholic truths as a means to defend sedeism, I decided to start calling that what it is.
    I appreciate what you have said about me Stubborn.  That is very kind.  However, I have mixed feelings about the rest of this post, so I want to give it more time before I respond.  I want to be honest, fair and thoughtful.    

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #201 on: December 31, 2023, 07:16:55 AM »
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  • No, what's arrogant an full of pride is to accuse me of calling cuм ex BS, never thinking that I was referring to, and explained that I was referring to your words around the citation. That's arrogant and prideful to think your words are above cuм ex.

    So you're an even worse case then I thought - not surprising for one who, initially at least, knew better. You are another one who listened to the wrong voices when you should have bewared. Now look at you.
    I suspect he was referring to this comment about the cuм Ex footnote (it is correct that you didn't use "BS", but you did call the footnote a lie):

    I could be wrong, but I do not believe it exists in the old CL, I believe it's a lie.

    Basically, you (at best) implied that Bishop Pivarunas was lying.  Where have you retracted that implication?

    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #202 on: December 31, 2023, 07:53:48 AM »
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  • More BS.

    I am calling it out as a lie for 2 reasons, 1) THAT'S WHAT IT IS. 2) You refuse to admit it because you gotta maintain a vacant chair at all costs. Nothing else really matters.
    You said get real - this ^ is real.
    I never meant to say you directly called cuм Ex Apostolatus BS. I was referring to the claims I made, which were true. Though you knew a bishop made the claim you continued to assert it was a lie when it was not. 
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #203 on: December 31, 2023, 08:03:30 AM »
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  • In an effort to keep the debate in one thread.....

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men."  [Acts Of Apostles 5:29]
    Here we have the typical sede error. The error is in his denying the very meaning of the Scripture, using the very words of St. Peter Himself to do it, to prove that what St. Peter [the first pope] does not apply to popes. 

    Rather than believe St. Peter as we are supposed to, he uses St. Peter's words in his effort to prove Christ's Vicar is something other or more than a man - because he's Christ's Vicar, not a man. Never considering that it is the [first] pope himself who is professing that Scripture. Which is to say to misinterpret that Scripture the way he is, St. Peter is making himself out to be something other than a man, which is absurd. This is Catholic thinking? I call it out as BS.

    This post of his is the heresy and not one sede called him out on it. Why? Because sedeism.

    Stubborn,

    They will say, "we ought to obey God, and not man, only when it comes to determining who the pope is." Lad, for one, says this. But after it's ascertained that a man is pope, you simply believe man, the pope, and the men, the bishops in union with him, when he (they) teach anything universally. The verse evaporates from relevance at that point. 

    As I think you have said before - and I paraphrase of course - we would have never gotten here, i.e., the Conciliar religion, without this idea that we suspend our judgment once the pope and the bishops decide something is true, and teach it to the Church. It - the Conciliar religion - would never have happened without that mindset. 

    I am sorry you are called a heretic for recognizing this. The Conciliar religion is a chastisement, in part because of this mindset that gave birth to it, and I am sorry that you have to endure this, which also is bred of the same mindset. 

    But remember Christ  - and St. Stephen, as St. Paul himself was only too painfully aware - was killed with a similar mindset and "zeal":


    Quote
    Romans 10:2-4

    2 For I bear them witness, that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.  3 For they, not knowing the justice of God, and seeking to establish their own, have not submitted themselves to the justice of God.  4 For the end of the law is Christ, unto justice to every one that believeth.

    Christ, not the Church. The Church (and the pope, the bishops) is (are) used by God to preach and spread Our Lord's Gospel; She (and the pope, the bishops) is (are) not the end.

    In the end She will be gone, and Christ will remain, and His people with Him and the apostles, saints. The "temple" will be gone:


    Quote
    Apocalypse 20:21-27

    21 And the twelve gates are twelve pearls, one to each: and every several gate was of one several pearl. And the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.  22 And I saw no temple therein. For the Lord God Almighty is the temple thereof, and the Lamb.  23 And the city hath no need of the sun, nor of the moon, to shine in it. For the glory of God hath enlightened it, and the Lamb is the lamp thereof.  24 And the nations shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth shall bring their glory and honour into it.  25 And the gates thereof shall not be shut by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.  27 There shall not enter into it any thing defiled, or that worketh abomination or maketh a lie, but they that are written in the book of life of the Lamb.

    The "sun" and the "moon" are the Church (with the pope and the bishops of earth). 

    I am sorry, again, that you have to endure this, brother, even if it is nothing in the great scheme of things. 

    DR

    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #204 on: December 31, 2023, 09:28:48 AM »
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  • Is it possible that the Archbishop was wrong or even that your understanding of him is incorrect?

     The Archbishop should not be the absolute standard on which you base your understanding of tradition on.
    The Archbishop merely put into words what we believed and lived then, now, and (hopefully) will until we die. +ABL is not my absolute standard for anything, what he is, is one of tradition's/traditional Catholics' hero's.  The problem sedes will have with his declaration, is that (with good reason) he not only does not blame the pope, he never even mentions his name.

    What I find remarkable is that you cannot fathom that it is even remotely possible that it might be you who are wrong, I'm not sure exactly why, but I find that fact somewhat fascinating, I guess I always have.

    Again, here is the magisterium +ABL speaks of, all you need to do is believe these popes, which far as I can tell, is impossible for sedes to do.

    I believe that's because sedes believe that those clear papal quotes only applied prior to V2, and that since then "the magisterium has been corrupted."

    Sedes believe this contrary-to-the-popes' teachings because although sedes think they know what the Church's Magisterium is, in reality they do not know what Church's Magisterium is. Worse yet, they think it is something it is not. But to settle the matter within the sede mind, imo all they need to do is believe those popes.
     
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #205 on: December 31, 2023, 09:36:24 AM »
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  • I appreciate what you have said about me Stubborn.  That is very kind.  However, I have mixed feelings about the rest of this post, so I want to give it more time before I respond.  I want to be honest, fair and thoughtful.   
    Don't worry about replying, heat of the battle and all of that. I should have just not said anything. But the way true teachings get twisted, then say I'm a heretic based on twisted teachings is what it is - BS.

    I know of other converts who I look up to who against all odds became trads. No way (imo) would they have stood any possible chance of converting except for God taking a very special interest in each and every one of them, singularly - and of course them cooperating with the graces He gave them. 

    Make no mistake about it, God watches very closely those He chooses to do this for. Many are called, but only few are chosen.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #206 on: December 31, 2023, 09:48:27 AM »
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  • The Archbishop merely put into words what we believed and lived then, now, and (hopefully) will until we die. +ABL is not my absolute standard for anything, what he is, is one of tradition's/traditional Catholics' hero's.  The problem sedes will have with his declaration, is that (with good reason) he not only does not blame the pope, he never even mentions his name.

    What I find remarkable is that you cannot fathom that it is even remotely possible that it might be you who are wrong, I'm not sure exactly why, but I find that fact somewhat fascinating, I guess I always have.

    Again, here is the magisterium +ABL speaks of, all you need to do is believe these popes, which far as I can tell, is impossible for sedes to do.

    I believe that's because sedes believe that those clear papal quotes only applied prior to V2, and that since then "the magisterium has been corrupted."

    Sedes believe this contrary-to-the-popes' teachings because although sedes think they know what the Church's Magisterium is, in reality they do not know what Church's Magisterium is. Worse yet, they think it is something it is not. But to settle the matter within the sede mind, imo all they need to do is believe those popes.


    Now you need to reconcile what *you want* to believe of the Archbishop to what he actually said regarding the pope-heretic question:

    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #207 on: December 31, 2023, 10:29:53 AM »
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  • Now you need to reconcile what *you want* to believe of the Archbishop to what he actually said regarding the pope-heretic question:
    So you again just completely ignore my post(s) as if I only posted them for you to use to drive your sede agenda. What the heck is it with you guys?

    +ABL questioned the whole valid pope issue - who the heck didn't back then? I posted a video where Fr. Wathen, I think it was recorded in 1984 or so, had to explain what "sedevacantism" was, because the new idea was spreading itself  among trad priests and faithful, prior to that no one could hardly even pronounce it, let alone make it the latest de fide doctrine that it is today. And there was another youtube I posted with one of the pre-sede Dimonds who apparently only heard of it in his interview, he had to have Fr. Wathen explain it to him - and Dimond whole heartedly agreed sedeism was wrong, even quoting Pope Martin V against it. 

    So what? It is with good reason that +ABL never said we MUST proclaim sede vacante, and we must name this new de fide doctrine sedevacantism and we must build our entire faith around it, being ever watchful not to impede in any way on this new doctrine. +ABL never said to split up, divide out, and whoever wants go get consecrated as sede bishops, and get away from all other Catholics who will not accept that the pope is not the pope. He never said anything of the sort.

    He said one day we may be able to say the pope is not the pope. 

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Hank Igitur

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #208 on: December 31, 2023, 12:07:37 PM »
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  •  It is with good reason that +ABL never said we MUST proclaim sede vacante, and we must name this new de fide doctrine sedevacantism and we must build our entire faith around it, being ever watchful not to impede in any way on this new doctrine. +ABL never said to split up, divide out, and whoever wants go get consecrated as sede bishops, and get away from all other Catholics who will not accept that the pope is not the pope. He never said anything of the sort.

    He said one day we may be able to say the pope is not the pope.
    If +ABL were alive in 2023 (32 years after his actual death) there is no doubt whatsoever that he would proclaim sede vacante. The Church has gotten a billion times worse in 32 years, especially in the last 10 years alone with Bergoglio, and things are only going to get worse. So can any rational person even think that +ABL would hesitate in 2023 to declare sede vacante? The answer is definitely no. The reason why the leaders of the SSPX and the leaders of the Resistance (e.g. +Williamson) will never proclaim sede vacante is because they know they will lose more than 80% of their parishioners and fellow clergy if they did so. The truth doesn't matter anymore to the R&R leaders. That's obvious by now. If this was still the 90s or even pre-2013, I could understand but to Recognize Bergoglio as The Vicar of Christ who is the Living Rule of Faith on Earth in 2023????????:facepalm: 

    What more does Bergoglio have to do to prove to you R&R people that he is not The Vicar of Christ/The Living Rule Of Faith on Earth?? Speak in demonic tones? Spit on a Crucifix? (He's already ashamed of the Crucifix because he covers it up whenever he meets with non-Catholics) Organize a gαy pride parade inside St. Peter's Basilica?

    I'm guessing that 5 years from now (once the Church is even in a worse condition than it is right now) you R&R sheep will still be living in your "theological fantasy land" because you'll still be listening to your Fellays and your Williamsons who do not want their "tithing gravy train" to ever run out of cash. 

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #209 on: December 31, 2023, 12:08:07 PM »
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  • Don't worry about replying, heat of the battle and all of that. I should have just not said anything. But the way true teachings get twisted, then say I'm a heretic based on twisted teachings is what it is - BS.
    It seems both sides could say the same thing, so I don't think it's fair for you to point fingers at the sedes as if it never happens on the non-sede side.  All one needs to look at is the recent "Old Catholic" thread for proof of that...including name calling, false assertions, etc. 

    I personally have always tried to refrain from false assertions and the name-calling whether it's just a rude name or names like "heretic" or "schismatic" (although I'm sure I'm not completely innocent in that regard).  Having said that, I think it's reasonable for someone to write that they believe someone holds "heretical beliefs" or is "objectively schismatic" without that being considered name calling.

    And while I'm at it, I am still disturbed that you have not retracted your accusation that Bishop Pivarunas lied about the cuм Ex footnote in the 1917 CCL.