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Author Topic: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides  (Read 24081 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
« Reply #165 on: December 30, 2023, 10:55:35 AM »
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  • While the footnoting is cryptic, it's obvious that cuм ex nowhere deals with 188.8, tacit resignation due to abandonment, but rather to 4, defection from the faith.  (2) appears at the end of 8 only because 8 is the last part of 188 and not because it refers to 8.  Use some common sense, would you?
    Canon 188.4 is explained here.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #166 on: December 30, 2023, 12:39:47 PM »
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  • So proof was produced that cuм Ex Apostolatus is referenced by the 1917 Code of Canon Law. 

    None of that will matter to those who desire to have Francis as their pope. They will look for any out. It’s grasping for straws to say it applies to one part of canon 188 put not the part that is actually pertinent to the relevancy of the docuмent. Not even worth discussing anymore. And still accusing people including a bishop of telling lies. Really pathetic actually. 
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...


    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #167 on: December 30, 2023, 01:21:09 PM »
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  • Negative, that's not the way foot notes work. There are like 20 references in that footnote, take for instance that taking two random references from that footnote translates (via google translate):
    "from the clergy not to be resident in the church or to be preached"
    and another saying:
    "concerning the grant of a gift and a church not vacant"

    The point is, those footnotes have to do with Canon 188.8 where the cleric physically deserts his post (his office).


    Here is the English and as you can see cuм Ex applies to 188.4:

    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #168 on: December 30, 2023, 01:23:24 PM »
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  • Produce the foot note.

    Nobody in their right Catholic mind would think for one second that the Church would vacate any office "without the need for any declarations whatsoever" because of the scandal that idea would most certainly cause. 

    At any rate, I sure can't find it in my copy of the 1917 Code, so kindly prove the quote.

    I find that there are plenty of references for "Pope Pius X Vacante Sede Apostolica of 25 Dec. 1904 are to be most assiduously observed" (which abrogated cuм ex), but zero on cuм Ex Apostolatus anywhere in the 1917 CCL.


    Are you going to retract, Stubborn?
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #169 on: December 30, 2023, 01:24:38 PM »
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  • So proof was produced that cuм Ex Apostolatus is referenced by the 1917 Code of Canon Law.

    None of that will matter to those who desire to have Francis as their pope. They will look for any out. It’s grasping for straws to say it applies to one part of canon 188 put not the part that is actually pertinent to the relevancy of the docuмent. Not even worth discussing anymore. And still accusing people including a bishop of telling lies. Really pathetic actually.
    It's been a long time since I've posted this but:

    "Anything but Sedevacantism!"


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #170 on: December 30, 2023, 02:51:01 PM »
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  • So proof was produced that cuм Ex Apostolatus is referenced by the 1917 Code of Canon Law.

    None of that will matter to those who desire to have Francis as their pope. They will look for any out. It’s grasping for straws to say it applies to one part of canon 188 put not the part that is actually pertinent to the relevancy of the docuмent. Not even worth discussing anymore. And still accusing people including a bishop of telling lies. Really pathetic actually.
    You know what Centro, you would do better to sthu rather than go on slandering those of us who, since the novel idea began, see sedeism for what it is and what it does. At best, the whole idea is iniquitous, and we all know what God tells workers of iniquity when they meet Him. As per the sede program, you completely ignored the refutations, twice posted to you.

    No, we have zero desire for Francis as our pope, we pray for a good and holy pope. So sthu with your stinking BS already. Hopefully I made this clear for you.

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #171 on: December 30, 2023, 02:52:47 PM »
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  • It's been a long time since I've posted this but:

    "Anything but Sedevacantism!"
    Well, you've got that only partially right. It's not "anything but sedeism." Try "Catholicism, not sedeism."
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #172 on: December 30, 2023, 03:34:20 PM »
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  • Are you going to retract, Stubborn?
    Of course not.  He's Stubborn:fryingpan:


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #173 on: December 30, 2023, 03:38:47 PM »
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  • So proof was produced that cuм Ex Apostolatus is referenced by the 1917 Code of Canon Law.

    None of that will matter to those who desire to have Francis as their pope. They will look for any out. It’s grasping for straws to say it applies to one part of canon 188 put not the part that is actually pertinent to the relevancy of the docuмent. Not even worth discussing anymore. And still accusing people including a bishop of telling lies. Really pathetic actually.
    This is the most pathetic of it all. Absolutely no excuse for it.  And still no retraction.  I guess it's open season on sedevacantist bishops. 

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #174 on: December 30, 2023, 03:45:54 PM »
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  • Of course not.  He's Stubborn. :fryingpan:

    No, it doesn’t seem so. :facepalm:
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #175 on: December 30, 2023, 03:46:33 PM »
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  • Canon 188.4 is explained here.

    Stubborn, in that link above, you are referencing your earlier post that includes the following quote from 1917 Canon Law:


    Quote
    On delicts against the faith and unity of the Church
    Canon 2314

    § 1. All apostates from the Christian faith and each and every heretic or schismatic:
    1.° Incur by that fact excommunication;
    2.° Unless they respect warnings, they are deprived of benefice, dignity, pension, office, or other duty that they have in the Church, they are declared infamous, and [if] clerics, with the warning being repeated, [they are] are deposed;
    3.° If they give their names to non-Catholic sects or publicly adhere [to them], they are by that fact infamous, and with due regard for the prescription of Canon 188, n. 4, clerics, the previous warnings having been useless, are degraded.

    In 1917 Canon Law there are 3 levels of excommunication:

    1. automatic, ipso facto, excommunication.
    2. declared excommunication.
    3. banned excommunication.
     
    Each of these levels has its own penalties that are increased at each level. At the first level, the automatic [ipso facto] level, the excommunicate is "removed from legitimate ecclesiastical acts" and "prohibited from conducting ecclesiastical offices or responsibilities" (Canon 2263). At the next level, the "declared" level, the excommunicate is further deprived of "the fruits" of his office, such as a salary or pension (Canon 2266). And at the "banned" level, the excommunicate is finally deposed from the office itself (Canon 2266).

    Now let's move to our current situation and apply Canon 2314 and Canon 2263 to Jorge Bergoglio. Following Canon 2314, Bergoglio, is an ipso facto excommunicate on account of manifest heresy. Therefore, he is automatically "removed from legitimate ecclesiastical acts" and "prohibited from conducting ecclesiastical offices and responsibilities" according to Canon 2263.

    This means Bergoglio is in a state of being "deprived" of his legal ability to act as a governor of the Church. In other words, he is "impounded" until the next step is taken to "declare" him as "infamous."

    However, for all practical purposes, even as a simple ipso facto excommunicate, Bergoglio cannot be viewed legally as an "acting Pope." At best, he is in a state of legal suspension awaiting a juridical declaration. Therefore, by the above logic of 1917 Canon Law, one who believes that Bergoglio is a manifest heretic must be at least a Sede-privationist or Sede-impoundist.


    P.S. All of the above assumes that Bergoglio was lawfully-elected (which he wasn't). And since Bergoglio never was lawfully-elected Pope, the See is, in fact, completely vacant, practically and ontologically.



    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #176 on: December 30, 2023, 03:47:05 PM »
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  • Of course not.  He's Stubborn. :fryingpan:
    No, I directly answered dozens of his questions already, he did not answer dozens of my questions, and I won't answer this question until he answers.

    But I already admitted I was wrong on one point, that cuм ex is indeed foot noted in the 1917 CL, which is all I will offer until he answers.....which almost certainly means I will never answer. Especially since he will have to go back and look for the questions as I won't do that for him.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #177 on: December 30, 2023, 03:48:46 PM »
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  • I consider this thread a stain on the reputation of Stubborn. It is very real proof that his position is based on a fundamental pride of being right. I was willing to state publicly that I was misled into believing that cuм Ex Apostolatus was in the Code of Canon Law and that I was wrong. I would have gladly conceded to Stubborn and Plenus that they were right and that I was wrong. Yet, after being accused of being a liar and aggressively demanding proof or else I am a liar. Then not giving proof quick enough and being given the reason that I am lying, proof is presented. When proof is presented I am told to STHU as Stubborn squirms like a little worm to try to find a way to still seem like he is right and even continue to accuse one of lying. 

    Honestly, this thread demonstrates the character of man he is, which is unbecoming of a Traditional Catholic. I suspect there are many in his camp just like him and this is a base level reason why the Crisis in the Church is prolonged. 
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #178 on: December 30, 2023, 03:55:05 PM »
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  • P.S. All of the above assumes that Bergoglio was lawfully-elected (which he wasn't). And since Bergoglio never was lawfully-elected Pope, the See is, in fact, completely vacant, practically and ontologically.
    Dissecting Canon Law only adds to the problem. I can dissect it too.

    This quote of yours reminds me of when one of the Dimond's in his pre-sede days during an interview with Fr. Wathen, wholly agreed with him when Fr. said that sedevacantism is inherently anarchistic: "sedevacantists argue themselves into a mentality of total lawlessness, the only consequence of which is that the total legal structure of the Church is either threatened, or it is violated or destroyed, that is the result of anarchism."
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #179 on: December 30, 2023, 03:56:46 PM »
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  • I consider this thread a stain on the reputation of Stubborn. It is very real proof that his position is based on a fundamental pride of being right. I was willing to state publicly that I was misled into believing that cuм Ex Apostolatus was in the Code of Canon Law and that I was wrong. I would have gladly conceded to Stubborn and Plenus that they were right and that I was wrong. Yet, after being accused of being a liar and aggressively demanding proof or else I am a liar. Then not giving proof quick enough and being given the reason that I am lying, proof is presented. When proof is presented I am told to STHU as Stubborn squirms like a little worm to try to find a way to still seem like he is right and even continue to accuse one of lying.

    Honestly, this thread demonstrates the character of man he is, which is unbecoming of a Traditional Catholic. I suspect there are many in his camp just like him and this is a base level reason why the Crisis in the Church is prolonged.
    Well of course you think that. As long as you ignore everything that squashes your opinion, why would you think any different?

    The reality is, I am not going to simply relinquish what to me are pearls, but to him and you is heresy.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse