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Author Topic: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides  (Read 24396 times)

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Offline Hank Igitur

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Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
« Reply #75 on: December 29, 2023, 12:02:31 AM »
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  • Well, Hank, what doctrine do you want me to believe that you think I don't? That the Pope is God? That I can depose a Pope? It is rather you who have created new doctrines that you wish Catholics to submit to. Stop trying to be Pope!
    I don't think that you believe the simple fact that the Church cannot formally teach error. You seem to be under the misconception that if Francis is not a true Pope, then the Church has defected. However, the exact opposite is true: The Church has defected, and proved itself to be a fraud, not if Francis isn’t the Pope, but if he is.

    Only a 
    true Pope is assisted by the Holy Ghost:

    “The Pope has the divine promises; even in his human weaknesses, he is invincible and unshakable; he is the messenger of truth and justice, the principle of the unity of the Church; his voice denounces errors, idolatries, superstitions; he condemns iniquities; he makes charity and virtue loved.” (Pope Pius XII, Address Ancora Una Volta, Feb. 20, 1949) 

    And so the reason why Bergoglio can publicly commit all of these formal heresies with impunity and without any interference from the Holy Spirit is quite simply the fact that he is not the Pope.

    Offline Hank Igitur

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #76 on: December 29, 2023, 12:16:16 AM »
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  • As St Robert Bellarmine says, even if we could not depose a Pope WHO WANTS TO DESTROY THE CHURCH (note: a pope can have the desire to destroy the Church), we must pray God Who will either CONVERT HIM (note: a Pope may need converting) or abolish him from the midst before he achieves his evil designs.
    St. Robert Bellarmine's 5 opinions pertain only to the heresy of a Pope "as a private person" and does not include the possibility of any error whatsoever corrupting the universal/ordinary magisterium, which is what Bergoglio has done publicly for more than 10 + years.

    Therefore, it's best to just accept the unfortunate truth instead of parroting inane Salza & Siscoe talking points.


    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #77 on: December 29, 2023, 04:50:59 AM »
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  • St. Robert Bellarmine's 5 opinions pertain only to the heresy of a Pope "as a private person" and does not include the possibility of any error whatsoever corrupting the universal/ordinary magisterium, which is what Bergoglio has done publicly for more than 10 + years.

    Therefore, it's best to just accept the unfortunate truth instead of parroting inane Salza & Siscoe talking points.
    I have not read S&S on St Robert Bellarmine's five opinions, Hank, but I do have a copy of St Robert's work. I do not see where he states that his argument relates to private heresy only. Are we on the same page? He does call all of these five 'opinions', and even the one he calls the 'true opinion', he doesn't hold to, because he actually believes that God would not let the Pope become a heretic in the first place. He does state, in his examination of the second opinion, that "jurisdiction is certainly given to the Pontiff by God, but with the agreement of men, as is obvious; because this man, who beforehand was not Pope, has from men that he would begin to be Pope, therefore, he is not removed by God unless it is through men".

    Let's face it, these are all theological opinions, and no theologian really envisaged the current state of the Church - although St Robert seems to have come close where he talks about resisting the Pope who wants to destroy the Church. We are in uncharted territory. There is doubt. Sedevacantists want to make something certain that is by no means certain. The Church has not settled this matter, so we ought not to pretend to. Even the third opinion, that the Pope cannot be deposed on account of heresy, whether secret or manifest, St Robert calls 'extremely improbable', which is not impossible, and has not been condemned by the Church.

    It is indeed truth that we must accept, not opinion.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #78 on: December 29, 2023, 04:52:41 AM »
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  • Stop your sophistry.

    There are two answers to your post.

    Firstly, without even reading the rest of the Council docuмent, there is a very important question to ask. What is infallible in a Council? Is it every word of every docuмent? Or the definitions? Of course, it is the definitions which are held to be infallible, and what does the definition say (see below)? Why would the Church place all of those conditions there for infallibility if it could have simply said the Pope is infallible "every time he teaches on faith and morals"? It's simple. Stop trying to complicate things. Submit to the Church. Furthermore, the Council states that this definition is IRREFORMABLE. An anathema is attached to anyone who does not accept it as it is, unreformed! Stop your perfidious reforming of Vatican I.

    Secondly, and I have responded to you with this explanation before, you must read how the very docuмent that defines infallibility explains these very characteristics that you cite: 1. never failing faith and 2. the Apostolic See unblemished by error. It is precisely in the infallibility as defined by the Council that, according to the very docuмent itself, these two characteristics of never failing faith of Peter and the First See unblemished by error consist. It is pure fantasy on your part to imagine that it means that the Pope can teach no error in faith or morals at all. Read the docuмent for goodness' sake:

    In Summary it says "For the Holy Spirit was promised to the successors of Peter... that by His assistance they might religiously guard and faithfully expound the revelation... for they (the Roman Pontiffs) knew very well that this See of Peter always remains unblemished by any error, in accordance with the divine promise... I have prayed for thee that thy faith not fail... This gift of truth and never failing faith was therefore divinely conferred on Peter and his successors SO THAT they might discharge their exalted office for the salvation of all, and so that the whole flock of Christ might be kept away from the poisonous food of error..." But since in this age there are not a few who disparage the authority of the Holy See "We judge it absolutely necessary to affirm solemnly the prerogative" which Our Lord attached to the office of Pope, "THEREFORE, faithfully adhering to the tradition received... we teach and define as a divinely revealed dogma..."

    You know the meaning of the word "therefore"? It means for this reason, on account of this.

    Listen, Ladislaus, and hear the Church. It is because of this never failing faith of Peter, because of the First See being unblemished by error, that the Council defines the prerogative that Our Lord attached to the office of the Papacy, that infallibility which Our Divine Redeemer willed his Church to enjoy, the tradition faithfully received, the very meaning of its freedom from error and unfailing faith. What is that prerogative? Freedom from error whenever the Pope teaches on Faith and morals? Is that what it says? Read and submit to the Church and stop corrupting the Faith of the Church:

    • To satisfy this pastoral office, our predecessors strove unwearyingly that the saving teaching of Christ should be spread among all the peoples of the world; and with equal care they made sure that it should be kept pure and uncontaminated wherever it was received.
    • It was for this reason that the bishops of the whole world, sometimes individually, sometimes gathered in synods, according to the long established custom of the churches and the pattern of ancient usage referred to this apostolic see those dangers especially which arose in matters concerning the faith. This was to ensure that any damage suffered by the faith should be repaired in that place above all where the faith can know no failing [59] .
    • The Roman pontiffs, too, as the circuмstances of the time or the state of affairs suggested,

      • sometimes by

        • summoning ecuмenical councils or
        • consulting the opinion of the churches scattered throughout the world, sometimes by
        • special synods, sometimes by
        • taking advantage of other useful means afforded by divine providence,
      • defined as doctrines to be held those things which, by God’s help, they knew to be in keeping with

        • sacred scripture and
        • the apostolic traditions.
    • For the holy Spirit was promised to the successors of Peter

      • not so that they might, by his revelation, make known some new doctrine,
      • but that, by his assistance, they might religiously guard and faithfully expound the revelation or deposit of faith transmitted by the apostles.
      Indeed, their apostolic teaching was

      • embraced by all the venerable fathers and
      • reverenced and followed by all the holy orthodox doctors,
      for they knew very well that this see of St. Peter always remains unblemished by any error, in accordance with the divine promise of our Lord and Saviour to the prince of his disciples: I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren [60] .
    • This gift of truth and never-failing faith was therefore divinely conferred on Peter and his successors in this see so that they might discharge their exalted office for the salvation of all, and so that the whole flock of Christ might be kept away by them from the poisonous food of error and be nourished with the sustenance of heavenly doctrine. Thus the tendency to schism is removed and the whole church is preserved in unity, and, resting on its foundation, can stand firm against the gates of hell.
    • But since in this very age when the salutary effectiveness of the apostolic office is most especially needed, not a few are to be found who disparage its authority, we judge it absolutely necessary to affirm solemnly the prerogative which the only-begotten Son of God was pleased to attach to the supreme pastoral office.
    • Therefore,

      • faithfully adhering to the tradition received from the beginning of the christian faith,
      • to the glory of God our saviour,
      • for the exaltation of the catholic religion and
      • for the salvation of the christian people,
      • with the approval of the sacred council,


      • we teach and define as a divinely revealed dogma that

        • when the Roman pontiff speaks EX CATHEDRA,

          • that is, when,
          • in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians,
          • in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority,
          • he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole church,
        • he possesses,

          • by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter,
        • that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals.
        • Therefore, such definitions of the Roman pontiff are of themselves, and not by the consent of the church, irreformable.
    So then, should anyone, which God forbid, have the temerity to REJECT THIS DEFINITION of ours: let him be anathema.
    Well said PV! This post could be pinned at the top of the Crisis forum.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #79 on: December 29, 2023, 04:54:34 AM »
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  • Quote from Stubborn - "The so called "R&R" is resisting the heresies of the conciliar church and new religion by keeping the faith." Isn't this the same mindset of every group that has ever split from the Roman Catholic Church?
    No, it is not the same mindset of every group. One example is Henry VIII, who turned the Church in England into the Church of England because the pope wouldn't grant him a divorce. The list of reasons for splitting is long.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #80 on: December 29, 2023, 06:44:00 AM »
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  • You might, in all good faith 2V, take note of the fact that my post was a response to a sedevacantist whining about R&Rers on our home turf!
    Well, I would in all good faith if that was what he was doing. 

    However, he, a sede that rarely posts here, was making an observation that many of the R&R posters here focus more on sedevacantism than on the words and actions of their pope.  That's an observable fact.  He wasn't emoting.  The only thing I would add is that this behavior isn't as frequent as it used to be.

    Whining is when a R&R poster continually emotes that the sedevacantists are "taking over the forum!" (and yet remains here) and when you complain that this feeeeels like enemy territory (essentially confirming that ongoing whining).   

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #81 on: December 29, 2023, 07:24:13 AM »
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  • I am therefore free to preach sedevacantism and recruit others to that position, and to the historical figures who have espoused that position?
    I am therefore free to draw the logical consequences and proceed to conclavism, and draw others to follow me into that course of action?
    Let's not forget that this thread put sedevacantists on the defensive from the start.  It wasn't a thread started by a sede with the goal of "preaching and recruiting" others to his/her position.  Sedevacantist posters responded to defend the position from the assertion that there is "no good thing, only bad things" that comes from it.  This is typically how things go down here.

    Offline TheRealMcCoy

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #82 on: December 29, 2023, 07:30:31 AM »
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  • R & R seems to be the Catholic equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and loudly singing "la, la, la, la, la, la.........." and believing you won't lose your faith because your false obedience protects you magically.  

    The poison cake metaphor used to be 5%....now it's 30% poison?  I wouldn't eat 1% poison.  


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #83 on: December 29, 2023, 07:44:29 AM »
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  • R & R seems to be the Catholic equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and loudly singing "la, la, la, la, la, la.........." and believing you won't lose your faith because your false obedience protects you magically. 

    The poison cake metaphor used to be 5%....now it's 30% poison?  I wouldn't eat 1% poison. 
    You mean like this?

    The papacy of old has become an idol - page 2 - Members Only - Catholic Info (cathinfo.com)

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #84 on: December 29, 2023, 07:58:17 AM »
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  • Pope Martin V is pretty clear. I only quoted a small portion of his condemnation below....

    This most holy synod of Constance therefore declares and defines that the articles listed below... are not catholic and should not be taught to be such but rather many of them are erroneous, others scandalous, others offensive to the ears of the devout, many of them are rash and seditious, and some of them are notoriously heretical and have long ago been rejected and condemned by holy fathers and by general councils, and it strictly forbids them to be preached, taught or in any way approved.... this most holy synod therefore reproves and condemns the aforesaid books and his teaching...
    ...On account of the above, moreover, *all* his teaching is and shall be deservedly suspect regarding the faith and is to be avoided by all of Christ’s faithful...This same holy synod decrees that local ordinaries and inquisitors of heresy are to proceed against any who violate or defy this  sentence and decree as if they were persons suspected of heresy...

    20. If the pope is wicked, and especially if he is foreknown to damnation, then he is a devil like Judas the apostle, a thief and a son of perdition and is not the head of the holy church militant since he is not even a member of it. - CONDEMNED
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #85 on: December 29, 2023, 08:47:25 AM »
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  • Complete fantasy. The Resistance sees sedevacantism as a danger to souls, just as Archbishop Lefebvre did, a deviation from the right path.

    Do you speak for "the Resistance" now?  Both Bishop Williamson and Avrille have stated that SVism is understandable, and +Williamson that it's possible Bergoglio is not the pope.  Father Chazal has stated that +Vigano is effectively Resistance, despite holding it to be morally certain that Jorge is not the pope.  Apart from a stretch in the early 1980s, +Lefebvre himself stated that SVism was possible, just that he did not feel that it was "YET" time to come out openly as an SV, deferring to the Church.  Last time I checked, such sentiments preclude certainty in their legitimacy as "dogmatic fact" and at least puts these papal claimants into the papa dubius = nullus papa category.

    You appear to be arrogantly putting words into the mouths of "the Resistance".  If anyone speaks for the Resistance, that would be Bishop Williamson, and he does not believe that questioning Jorge's legitimacy is any "danger to souls," but rather that it's possible and understandable.  Similarly, you put your own false spin on +Lefebvre, who was mostly open to SVism (again, except for in the early 1980s).

    Stop trying to pretend that +Williamson or +Lefebvre are sock puppets for your own opinion.  It's really this marked tendency toward Old Catholicism among some R&R that is the true danger to souls.  And, newsflash, if Jorge is pope, we're both in trouble ... since the Church has dogmatically declared that subjection to the Vicar of Christ is necessary for salvation.


    Offline TheRealMcCoy

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #86 on: December 29, 2023, 09:08:23 AM »
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  • Offline Hank Igitur

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #87 on: December 29, 2023, 09:50:51 AM »
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  • No, it is not the same mindset of every group. One example is Henry VIII, who turned the Church in England into the Church of England because the pope wouldn't grant him a divorce. The list of reasons for splitting is long.
    You're correct in that it is the same mindset of every group that will not submit to the living magisterium of the Roman Catholic Church, including you guys who are R&R. If you regard Bergoglio as your pope then why don't you submit to him instead of being a splinter group of a splinter group (The SSPX----->The Resistance). Your position and attitude is no different than every other splinter group.

    Offline Hank Igitur

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #88 on: December 29, 2023, 09:53:31 AM »
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  • Stop trying to pretend that +Williamson or +Lefebvre are sock puppets for your own opinion.  It's really this marked tendency toward Old Catholicism among some R&R that is the true danger to souls.  And, newsflash, if Jorge is pope, we're both in trouble ... since the Church has dogmatically declared that subjection to the Vicar of Christ is necessary for salvation.
    Ladislaus is 100% on point here. Why can't the R&R just face the sad and bitter truth and deal with it?

    Offline Hank Igitur

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #89 on: December 29, 2023, 10:05:06 AM »
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  • Submit to the Church....Read and submit to the Church...
    Exactly. Submit to your Pope Bergoglio:incense: