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Author Topic: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides  (Read 24440 times)

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Offline ByzCat3000

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Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
« Reply #60 on: December 28, 2023, 09:31:42 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on December 28, 2023, 06:47:16 PM
    I would change your statement to be in conformity with the entirety of Vatican I, which teaches that Peter and his successors have been gifted with a never-failing faith, and that the See can never be blemished by error, and that the dogma itself derives from the notion that the Papacy is the source of unity in faith for the Church.  In claiming that the Magisterium has become so corrupt and the Public Worship of the Church so harmful and displeasing to God that it requires the opposite of unity, a severing of communion with and submission to the Vicar of Christ in order to remain faithful to Tradition, you're spouting nothing short of heresy.  You also incur Trent's anathema for claiming that the Rites used by the Church can be an incentive to impiety for the faithful.
    I could be off base here, but I’m not convinced that’s the question trent meant to deal with.  It seems like the authorial intent of Trent was moreso to address Protestants who saw the rituals, vestments, etc of the church IN GENERAL to be incentives to impiety.  I suspect if you asked the Tridentine fathers about this debate, they might well take your side on it, but I’m guessing they’d probably admit that the hypothetical of something like an NO wasn’t what they were intending to address

    And since you’d have to use steps of reasoning to argue that R andR ideas about the NO fall under the Tridentine anathema, it would at least seem to be something less than heresy imo 
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    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #61 on: December 28, 2023, 09:41:50 PM »
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    • Hi Byzcat, I haven't seen you around here in forever. Welcome back! :cowboy::laugh1:
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    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #62 on: December 28, 2023, 10:16:07 PM »
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    • Quote from: Matthew on December 28, 2023, 07:49:38 PM
    Everything touching on "How we deal with the Crisis in the Church" or "The exact nature of the Crisis in the Church" is ALL opinion and doubtful matter. None of is is certain or dogma. So "In dubiis libertas" all the way.
    I am therefore free to preach sedevacantism and recruit others to that position, and to the historical figures who have espoused that position?
    I am therefore free to draw the logical consequences and proceed to conclavism, and draw others to follow me into that course of action?
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    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #63 on: December 28, 2023, 10:29:02 PM »
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    • Quote from: ByzCat3000 on December 28, 2023, 09:31:42 PM
    I could be off base here, but I’m not convinced that’s the question trent meant to deal with.  It seems like the authorial intent of Trent was moreso to address Protestants who saw the rituals, vestments, etc of the church IN GENERAL to be incentives to impiety.  I suspect if you asked the Tridentine fathers about this debate, they might well take your side on it, but I’m guessing they’d probably admit that the hypothetical of something like an NO wasn’t what they were intending to address

    And since you’d have to use steps of reasoning to argue that R andR ideas about the NO fall under the Tridentine anathema, it would at least seem to be something less than heresy imo
    You are far closer to the truth than Ladislaus, ByzCat, surely.
    Trent also condemned the notion that the Pope could change these venerable rites.
    So the rites of the NO are not legitimate Catholic rites at all.
    It is failure to make such distinctions that results in such faulty logic.
    The Church is leading no one astray and inviting no one to impiety - only false shepherds about whom Our Lord warned us not to follow.
    Catholics who knew their faith better did not follow these incentives to impiety which did not come from Holy Mother Church, but continued to follow the true and legitimate rites handed down by Tradition.
    Such errors stem from this exaggerated notion of Papal infallibility which Vatican I clearly condemns.
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    Offline Emile

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #64 on: December 28, 2023, 10:32:34 PM »
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    • Quote from: Plenus Venter on December 28, 2023, 10:16:07 PM
    I am therefore free to preach sedevacantism and recruit others to that position, and to the historical figures who have espoused that position?
    I am therefore free to draw the logical consequences and proceed to conclavism, and draw others to follow me into that course of action?
    It's good to see a man with ambitious goals, PV! Please carry on.

    :cowboy: :popcorn:
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    If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?

    ― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago

    Offline Hank Igitur

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #65 on: December 28, 2023, 10:36:15 PM »
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    • Quote from Stubborn - "The so called "R&R" is resisting the heresies of the conciliar church and new religion by keeping the faith." Isn't this the same mindset of every group that has ever split from the Roman Catholic Church? 

    Quote from Plenus Venter - "He [The Pope] is only guaranteed such infallible fidelity when he teaches on faith and morals under very strict conditions as laid down by Vatican I." Bergoglio is a "formal heretic" that has taught "formal heresy" [e.g. Amoris Laetitia #297 (2016)] and it's been a string of formal heresy ever since his election 10 years ago. Nobody can honestly say he's only making mistakes or just speaking off-the-cuff "material" heresy or believe he is  the Vicar of Christ simply because he hasn't made these statements with the words "Ex Cathedra" alongside them. 

    Apparently, according to the R&R crowd, Bergoglio could be like The Exorcist Girl spewing vomit, twisting his head around, walking upside down on all fours, speaking in the growling tones of a demon and he would still be the Vicar of Christ on earth because he hasn't spoken "Ex Cathedra." 
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    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #66 on: December 28, 2023, 11:16:40 PM »
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    • Quote from: Emile on December 28, 2023, 10:32:34 PM
    It's good to see a man with ambitious goals, PV! Please carry on.

    :cowboy: :popcorn:
    Do I have your support Emile? Where and when can we meet? There is a tradition of meeting in the vineyards of Econe at night, would this suit?
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    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #67 on: December 28, 2023, 11:20:11 PM »
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    • Quote from: Hank Igitur on December 28, 2023, 10:36:15 PM
    "The so called "R&R" is resisting the heresies of the conciliar church and new religion by keeping the faith." Isn't this the same mindset of every group that has ever split from the Roman Catholic Church?
    I guess you know your mindset better than us Hank, tell us, is that it????? :-)
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    Offline Hank Igitur

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #68 on: December 28, 2023, 11:28:16 PM »
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    • The R&R crowd, along with the modernists, have created a church that can do or say anything. They have created a church that can believe and profess all or nothing of the Catholic faith. They have created a subjective church. All just to have a Pope.:facepalm:
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    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #69 on: December 28, 2023, 11:37:40 PM »
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    • Quote from: Hank Igitur on December 28, 2023, 10:36:15 PM
    Quote from Plenus Venter - "He [The Pope] is only guaranteed such infallible fidelity when he teaches on faith and morals under very strict conditions as laid down by Vatican I." Bergoglio is a "formal heretic" that has taught "formal heresy" [e.g. Amoris Laetitia #297 (2016)] and it's been a string of formal heresy ever since his election 10 years ago. Nobody can honestly say he's only making mistakes or just speaking off-the-cuff "material" heresy or believe he is  the Vicar of Christ simply because he hasn't made these statements with the words "Ex Cathedra" alongside them.

    Apparently, according to the R&R crowd, Bergoglio could be like The Exorcist Girl spewing vomit, twisting his head around, walking upside down on all fours, speaking in the growling tones of a demon and he would still be the Vicar of Christ on earth because he hasn't spoken "Ex Cathedra."
    Not impossible, Hank. As St Robert Bellarmine says, even if we could not depose a Pope WHO WANTS TO DESTROY THE CHURCH (note: a pope can have the desire to destroy the Church), we must pray God Who will either CONVERT HIM (note: a Pope may need converting) or abolish him from the midst before he achieves his evil designs.
    This is a new situation in the Church. Whether or not he can be deposed even for heresy is not settled. The Church has tolerated all theological opinions. Much caution and prudence are required. It is not impossible, in spite of appearances, that Pope Francis is nothing but a modernist who could indeed have the Faith. But even if he does not... He needs to be held to account. If an imperfect Council is called to do that I will certainly watch with interest.
    It is so important for you to make a definitive judgement that he is not Pope. I don't think there is any certitude according to our Holy Catholic Faith that you can do that. It doesn't change what you do, does it? It might lead to some of your friends never accepting a new and certainly valid pope from what you consider a defected church, though. It may lead to many Catholics in the Conciliar Church (the great number of Catholics in the world today, even if it is a small percentage of that Church) being left for dead... decisions have consequences. Such a grand decision, requires certainty, and it is not for me, so my Catholic sense tells me.
    You mention formal heresy. But formal heresy requires admonitions from a superior. Who would give such monitions to a Pope? So many ifs and buts and unanswerable questions. Let us not try to be the Church, we end up making ourselves popes and settling disputed matters. Not Catholic for me, not at all.
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    Offline Hank Igitur

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #70 on: December 28, 2023, 11:40:14 PM »
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    • Quote from: Plenus Venter on December 28, 2023, 11:20:11 PM
    I guess you know your mindset better than us Hank, tell us, is that it????? :-)
    That's not a refutation of the fact I stated. The R&R doesn't even understand that (concerning the recent canonizations of John XXIII, Paul VI and John Paul II) either canonizations are not infallible acts of the church and every single saint in history is now open for revision or else John XXIII, Paul VI, and John Paul II are forever saints to be venerated. 
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    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #71 on: December 28, 2023, 11:43:09 PM »
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    • Quote from: Hank Igitur on December 28, 2023, 11:28:16 PM
    The R&R crowd, along with the modernists, have created a church that can do or say anything. They have created a church that can believe and profess all or nothing of the Catholic faith. They have created a subjective church. All just to have a Pope.:facepalm:
    Well, Hank, what doctrine do you want me to believe that you think I don't? That the Pope is God? That I can depose a Pope? It is rather you who have created new doctrines that you wish Catholics to submit to. Stop trying to be Pope!
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    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #72 on: December 28, 2023, 11:46:16 PM »
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    • Quote from: Hank Igitur on December 28, 2023, 11:40:14 PM
    That's not a refutation of the fact I stated. The R&R doesn't even understand that (concerning the recent canonizations of John XXIII, Paul VI and John Paul II) either canonizations are not infallible acts of the church and every single saint in history is now open for revision or else John XXIII, Paul VI, and John Paul II are forever saints to be venerated.
    That's not true, Hank, I directly addressed your accusation, but now you throw up another issue. How is it that a true Pope can canonise those who have lead such scandalous lives? It is a good question, and indeed it requires an answer, which I am not going to give you now. Does it oblige us to acknowledge that the one sitting on the chair of Peter could not be Pope? But even if I answer that one to your satisfaction, there will just be another issue, true? Every single statement, every single action, even if they are doubtful in themselves, it seems that if we have enough of them the sum total is just so great that we have to conclude that he is not Pope! That's how it seems to work to me.
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    Offline Hank Igitur

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #73 on: December 28, 2023, 11:49:04 PM »
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    • According to the R&R, the very men traditionalists hate as much as Martin Luther (John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul II) are now among the blessed in heaven. Again, either canonizations are not infallible acts of the church and every single saint in history is now open for discussion or else John XXIII, Paul VI and John Paul II are saints to be venerated. 

    Will the R&R trads ever realize that, for them, saying "Pope St. Pius X Pray For Us" and saying "Pope Saint Paul VI Pray For Us" are now exactly on equal footing?  
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    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #74 on: December 28, 2023, 11:54:35 PM »
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    • Quote from: Hank Igitur on December 28, 2023, 11:49:04 PM
    According to the R&R, the very men traditionalists hate as much as Martin Luther (John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul II) are now among the blessed in heaven. Again, either canonizations are not infallible acts of the church and every single saint in history is now open for discussion or else John XXIII, Paul VI and John Paul II are saints to be venerated.

    Will the R&R trads ever realize that, for them, saying "Pope St. Pius X Pray For Us" and saying "Pope Saint Paul VI Pray For Us" are now exactly on equal footing? 
    Would you like to provide a source for such a ludicrous claim?
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