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Author Topic: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides  (Read 24219 times)

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Offline Meg

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Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
« Reply #90 on: December 29, 2023, 10:05:14 AM »
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  • Pope Martin V is pretty clear. I only quoted a small portion of his condemnation below....

    This most holy synod of Constance therefore declares and defines that the articles listed below... are not catholic and should not be taught to be such but rather many of them are erroneous, others scandalous, others offensive to the ears of the devout, many of them are rash and seditious, and some of them are notoriously heretical and have long ago been rejected and condemned by holy fathers and by general councils, and it strictly forbids them to be preached, taught or in any way approved.... this most holy synod therefore reproves and condemns the aforesaid books and his teaching...
    ...On account of the above, moreover, *all* his teaching is and shall be deservedly suspect regarding the faith and is to be avoided by all of Christ’s faithful...This same holy synod decrees that local ordinaries and inquisitors of heresy are to proceed against any who violate or defy this  sentence and decree as if they were persons suspected of heresy...

    20. If the pope is wicked, and especially if he is foreknown to damnation, then he is a devil like Judas the apostle, a thief and a son of perdition and is not the head of the holy church militant since he is not even a member of it. - CONDEMNED

    So the main belief of the SV's has been condemned by the Catholic Church. Pretty sure that the SV's aren't going to care, unfortunately. They are above Church teaching, of course. They seem to believe that it does not apply to them. But then Martin Luther thought the same, as did Calvin.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #91 on: December 29, 2023, 10:08:24 AM »
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  • 20. If the pope is wicked, and especially if he is foreknown to damnation, then he is a devil like Judas the apostle, a thief and a son of perdition and is not the head of the holy church militant since he is not even a member of it. - CONDEMNED

    :facepalm:

    Some R&R constantly confuse/conflate the notion of a "wicked" pope (sinful, degenerate) with a non-Catholic (cf. Pius XII that only heresy and schism separate from membership in the Church).  This is the same thinking behind the "bad father" analogy.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #92 on: December 29, 2023, 10:09:12 AM »
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  • So the main belief of the SV's has been condemned by the Catholic Church. Pretty sure that the SV's aren't going to care, unfortunately. They are above Church teaching.

    See above.  I swear, the level of thinking / IQ among some R&R is very difficult to suffer.

    Offline Hank Igitur

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #93 on: December 29, 2023, 10:10:19 AM »
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  •  It is pure fantasy on your part to imagine that it means that the Pope can teach no error in faith or morals at all.
    So a pope can formally teach error after error after error after error in faith and morals year after year after year after year (as Bergoglio has done and continues to do) and he's still the Vicar of Christ....okay :facepalm:

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #94 on: December 29, 2023, 10:10:58 AM »
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  • See above.  I swear, the level of thinking / IQ among some R&R is very difficult to suffer.

    At least we aren't liars. That has to count for something. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #95 on: December 29, 2023, 10:12:05 AM »
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  • You're correct in that it is the same mindset of every group that will not submit to the living magisterium of the Roman Catholic Church, including you guys who are R&R. If you regard Bergoglio as your pope then why don't you submit to him instead of being a splinter group of a splinter group (The SSPX----->The Resistance). Your position and attitude is no different than every other splinter group.
    You, like Lad, have a NO understanding of what the living magisterium is. FYI, non-sede trads are already in submission to the living magisterium.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #96 on: December 29, 2023, 10:12:37 AM »
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  • I don't think that you believe the simple fact that the Church cannot formally teach error. You seem to be under the misconception that if Francis is not a true Pope, then the Church has defected. However, the exact opposite is true: The Church has defected, and proved itself to be a fraud, not if Francis isn’t the Pope, but if he is.

    Only a
    true Pope is assisted by the Holy Ghost:

    “The Pope has the divine promises; even in his human weaknesses, he is invincible and unshakable; he is the messenger of truth and justice, the principle of the unity of the Church; his voice denounces errors, idolatries, superstitions; he condemns iniquities; he makes charity and virtue loved.” (Pope Pius XII, Address Ancora Una Volta, Feb. 20, 1949)

    And so the reason why Bergoglio can publicly commit all of these formal heresies with impunity and without any interference from the Holy Spirit is quite simply the fact that he is not the Pope.

    Archbishop Lefebvre (ignored by modern R&R):
    Quote
    ultimately I agree with you; it's not possible that the Pope, who is protected by the Holy Ghost, could do things like this.  There we agree; it's not possible, it doesn't fit, this destruction of the Church ...


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #97 on: December 29, 2023, 10:15:30 AM »
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  • :facepalm:

    Some R&R constantly confuse/conflate the notion of a "wicked" pope (sinful, degenerate) with a non-Catholic (cf. Pius XII that only heresy and schism separate from membership in the Church).  This is the same thinking behind the "bad father" analogy.
    Booo! :fryingpan:

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #98 on: December 29, 2023, 10:16:59 AM »
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  • So a pope can formally teach error after error after error after error in faith and morals year after year after year after year (as Bergoglio has done and continues to do) and he's still the Vicar of Christ....okay :facepalm:

    Yeah, the R&R attempt to make an analogy between this crisis here and an isolated error in some Encyclical or Allocution.  There's absolutely no comparison.  We have over 60 years of "Magisterium" that's thoroughly polluted with error, particularly religious indifferentism and denial of EENS, the promulgation of a non-Catholic Protestantized bastard Rite of Mass ... and they try to claim that it's in the same category as a mistake a Pope might make in some Encyclical or Allocution.  These V2 papal claimants have basically established a new religion that's not recognizable as Catholic, and as +Lefebvre pointed out, lacks the Marks of the Catholic Church.  They hide behind the technicalities of the limits to papal infallibility "in the strict sense" (as Msgr. Fenton referred to it) in order to pretend that the Magisterium and Mass from a legitimate pope can be so corrupt as to not only justify but even require refusal of communion with and submission to the Vicar of Christ.

    Let's say there was no NOM and we were talking about an isolated passage or two in Vatican II that was wrong.  There's no way there would have been a Traditional movement that separated from the hierarchy.  We'd have some Catholics who respectfully disagreed and questioned the teaching through the appropriate channels ... all from WITHIN the Church.  There would have been no need to split off from the Church.  Let's say I was a priest during the time of Pius XII and disagreed with what he said about evolution or NFP (both of which I do disagree with), would I go off and start my own chapel as a result of this disagreement?  Hardly.  But the scope of the V2 revolution and transformation of the Church has been so radical that we don't recognize it as the Catholic Church.  If St. Pius X had been time-warped to today, would he recognize the Conciliar Church as the Catholic Church?  No way.  He'd think it was some Protestant sect.  There's no comparison between the V2 revolution and some error / mistake in a non-infallible teaching of a Pope.

    R&R try to pretend that this is simply a difference of degree in terms of fallible statements, but the Conciliar Church represents a difference of kind, not merely a difference of degree.  If you can have one mistaken non-infallible teaching, why not 10, why not 100, why not 1000?  Well, the cuмulative effect of all that error and the New Mass and the bastardization of canonizations ... together they have the cuмulative effect of setting up a new religion and effect a substantial change in the institution known as the Conciliar Church.

    You can change a certain number of accidents, but at some point, the cuмulative effect is that the entity no longer has the same essence.  This reminds of a story with my Mother-In-Law.  At one point she brought out a cake that she called "Lemon Chiffon" cake.  And yet it was orange with brown frosting.  When questioned she said, "Well, I had a recipe for Lemon Chiffon cake.  But I didn't have the lemon batter, so I used this orange cake mix I had.  And I didn't have the lemon butter icing, so I used this brown icing that I had."  At this point, it's obviously not "lemon chiffon" cake anymore, but she still called it that.  This is precisely what R&R do, say that the transformation is merely accidental, whereas if you change enough of the "accidents", the thing cease substantially to be what it was.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #99 on: December 29, 2023, 10:24:07 AM »
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  • So the main belief of the SV's has been condemned by the Catholic Church. Pretty sure that the SV's aren't going to care, unfortunately. They are above Church teaching, of course. They seem to believe that it does not apply to them. But then Martin Luther thought the same, as did Calvin.
    You are of course right Meg, they will ignore THE POPE decreeing that the idea:
    is "not catholic and should not be taught"
    And that it is among Hus' ideas that THE POPE decreed are:
    1) "erroneous"
    2) "scandalous"
    3) "offensive to the ears of the devout"
    4) "rash and seditious"
    5) "notoriously heretical and have long ago been rejected and condemned by holy fathers and by general councils, which the council "strictly forbids them to be preached, taught or in any way approved."

    But because the pope did not come out and condemn the idea of sedeism explicitly (as if it existed back then), "it does not apply." :facepalm:
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #100 on: December 29, 2023, 10:26:37 AM »
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  • Quote
    I don't think that you believe the simple fact that the Church cannot formally teach error.
    1.  Neither V2 nor the new mass are a formal teaching, because neither is binding, nor obligatory, nor will anyone go to hell for ignoring them.
    2.  There are just as many flavors of R&R as there are of sedeism.  This is not an either-or situation.
    3.  Chastising "all of R&R" for not buying into your interpretation of the crisis is why many R&R don't like sedes. 


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #101 on: December 29, 2023, 10:29:34 AM »
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  • You are of course right Meg, they will ignore THE POPE decreeing that the idea:
    is "not catholic and should not be taught"
    And that it is among those Hus' ideas that THE POPE decreed are:
    1) "erroneous"
    2) "scandalous"
    3) "offensive to the ears of the devout"
    4) "rash and seditious"
    5) "notoriously heretical and have long ago been rejected and condemned by holy fathers and by general councils, which the council "strictly forbids them to be preached, taught or in any way approved."

    But because the pope did not come out and condemn the idea of sedeism explicitly (as if it existed back then), "it does not apply." :facepalm:

    Nobody's ignoring anything, you dunderhead.  That clearly refers to a wicked (sinful) pope and not a non-Catholic.  I guess that St. Robert Bellarmine's posiiton that a non-Catholic cannot be the Pope is condemned error, right?  It's too bad that he didn't get the memo, and that none of the subsequent theologians realized this.  But we have Stubborn coming to the rescue with his gross misinterpretation of papal teaching ... and yet sets himself up as the ultimate arbiter of what is Traditional and what isn't ... when that's precisely the pope's job, the job of the papacy.

    Offline Hank Igitur

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #102 on: December 29, 2023, 10:38:09 AM »
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  • 1.  Neither V2 nor the new mass are a formal teaching
    Please don't tell me you believe in that "Vatican II was a pastoral council" nonsense that is spewed by the SSPX and other R&R conmen. 2 of the 16 V2 docuмents are "Dogmatic Constitutions" (Dei Verbum and Lumen Gentium).

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #103 on: December 29, 2023, 10:40:52 AM »
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  • Nobody's ignoring anything, you dunderhead.  That clearly refers to a wicked (sinful) pope and not a non-Catholic.  I guess that St. Robert Bellarmine's posiiton that a non-Catholic cannot be the Pope is condemned error, right?  It's too bad that he didn't get the memo, and that none of the subsequent theologians realized this.  But we have Stubborn coming to the rescue with his gross misinterpretation of papal teaching ... and yet sets himself up as the ultimate arbiter of what is Traditional and what isn't ... when that's precisely the pope's job, the job of the papacy.

    1) It was not St. Robert's position, it was his opinion.
    2) Heretics are wicked, heresy is a sin
    3) THE POPE is condemning him teaching sedesim, i.e. that the pope is not the head of the Church since he is not even a member of it, not the excuses Hus used to arrive at that conclusion.
    4) Regardless of what you say, a) the above 3 points are fact to anyone with elementary reading comprehension, and b) THE POPE neither mentions or in any way implies that the idea THE POPE is condemning is an any way virtuous, or in any way profitable.

    It applies.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Your Friend Colin

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #104 on: December 29, 2023, 10:43:28 AM »
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  • You, like Lad, have a NO understanding of what the living magisterium is. FYI, non-sede trads are already in submission to the living magisterium.
    How?