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Author Topic: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides  (Read 24181 times)

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Offline Centroamerica

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Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
« Reply #30 on: December 28, 2023, 10:54:57 AM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on December 28, 2023, 08:25:05 AM
    Centro.  I just finished listening to the 27 minute talk.  Is this the whole thing?  I ask because His Excellency mentions at around 6:25 he will be speaking about jurisdiction afterwards, but the talk seems to have been cut off after he goes through the 5 objections.

    I think the talk was cut off after the 5 objections were discussed. There may be a longer version on a different youtube page somewhere. I’m pretty sure you can find the discussion about jurisdiction from Bishop Pivarunas in a different video as well. 
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #31 on: December 28, 2023, 10:57:03 AM »
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    • Quote from: Matthew on December 27, 2023, 08:31:22 AM
    Sedevacantism without "conclavism" is completely useless and superfluous.

    It's like after a complete collapse scenario (no grid electricity, Internet, public utilities anywhere), a complete Mad Max scenario, having some survivors "pro Internet" and others being "anti Internet". Now if a group of survivors was trying to actively rebuild electronics and computers from the ground up, and actively working to rebuild the Internet, that would be something. But that would be the equivalent of "conclavist sedevacantism".

    At least the conclavists are consistent, and giving some MEANING to their sedevacantism. They are trying to "do something about it". To bring the theory into the practical realm, so it has SOME relevance or reason to actually hold the position.

    My position is that sedevacantism, unless you add conclavism, is no better and usually worse than "plain vanilla" Traditional Catholicism. It adds nothing, and solves nothing. All it adds is another point of division, another reason for parishioners to stay home on Sunday when there's not a "sede" group chapel within driving distance.

    Yes, many sedes are more practical than that (they aren't "dogmatic" about it; they are willing to attend SSPX for example) but why start a movement like "sedevacantism" when a certain percent are going to be dogmatic about it (unnecessarily divisive and condemnatory) and/or end up Home Aloners?

    Zero upsides, nothing but downsides!

    Would you take a medicine that has no chance of helping you with anything, but has a 30% chance of killing you? Neither would I.

    I mean no disrespect, but if you truly believe the above, then why allow the sedevacantists to take over the forum? 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Emile

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #32 on: December 28, 2023, 11:09:17 AM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on December 28, 2023, 08:25:05 AM
    Centro.  I just finished listening to the 27 minute talk.  Is this the whole thing?  I ask because His Excellency mentions at around 6:25 he will be speaking about jurisdiction afterwards, but the talk seems to have been cut off after he goes through the 5 objections.

    Quote from: Centroamerica on December 28, 2023, 10:54:57 AM
    I think the talk was cut off after the 5 objections were discussed. There may be a longer version on a different youtube page somewhere. I’m pretty sure you can find the discussion about jurisdiction from Bishop Pivarunas in a different video as well.

    According to the notes on the youtube page, it was excerpted from this conference:

    http://www.traditionalcatholicsermons.org/wordpress/audio?link=http://traditionalcatholicsermons.org/FatimaConferences/BpPiv_ApologiaForTheTraditionalMovement_Part1_FatimaConference_2012.mp3

    http://www.traditionalcatholicsermons.org/wordpress/audio?link=http://traditionalcatholicsermons.org/FatimaConferences/BpPiv_ApologiaForTheTraditionalMovement_Part2_FatimaConference_2012.mp3

    http://www.traditionalcatholicsermons.org/wordpress/audio?link=http://traditionalcatholicsermons.org/FatimaConferences/BpPiv_QuestionsAndAnswers_FatimaConference_2012.mp3


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    If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?

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    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #33 on: December 28, 2023, 11:09:46 AM »
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    • Quote from: Mysterium Fidei on December 28, 2023, 09:27:34 AM
    The thing I notice most about R&R people on this forum is that they seem to more concerned with sedevacantism and those who hold this position than the heresy, apostacy and blasphemy coming from the man they claim to be thier pope.
    It is a very strange phenomenon that is not limited to this forum. You will see it sometimes more so in the resistance groups since they lose more clergy to the sedevacantists and take it as an affront to their egos, at least it seems. SSPX cricles are very anti-sedevacantist at times also, but the beef seems to be a lot calmer and less aggressive. The resistance sees the sedevacante position as a danger to its very existence. One of the first defenses it will grasp for is to say that if one adopts the sede vacante position they are somehow disrespecting the very memory of Archbishop Lefebvre or even perhaps an enemy of the Archbishop. Many times it is easy to point out where those groups may not follow the Archbishop exactly in things he had said or done but they choose to ignore that and rant back about how evil and useless sedevacantism is. It becomes a cycle that goes back and forth like an emotional roller coster. The more investigative anti-sedevacantists eventually arrive at arguments like “no one has tried Francis for heresy” or “a heretic can be a valid pope”. But notice that those who adopt that position of a heretic pope etc are drawn eventually into the Ecclesia Dei groups and reject SSPXism. (Carlos Nogué, Salza and Siscoe, the diocesan leaning Jeff Cassman who publicly disagreed with Archbishop Lefebvre’s statements despite attending a SSPX chapel)
    It mostly seems to indicate that it will take a new generation to look past the beefs and biases of our times. 
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    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #34 on: December 28, 2023, 11:42:08 AM »
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    • Quote
    It is a very strange phenomenon that is not limited to this forum. You will see it sometimes more so in the resistance groups since they lose more clergy to the sedevacantists and take it as an affront to their egos, at least it seems.
    No, we do not see it as an affront to our egos - where did that come from? You sound as ridiculous as Lad here. If anything, we are sad because another good priest succuмbed to the error of sedeism, which serves no good purpose.

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    SSPX cricles are very anti-sedevacantist at times also, but the beef seems to be a lot calmer and less aggressive.
    Again, you have this exactly backwards. The sedes are the ones who are anti-R&R, not the other way around. I mean that the sedes are the ones who left the R&R groups before anyone ever called them "R&R" to start their own sede / anti-R&R chapels, schools, seminaries and so on. It was not the R&R who could no longer stand the sedes to the point they had to leave, it was the sedes who could no longer stand everyone else, so much so that they had to leave. Nothing in that regards has changed.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #35 on: December 28, 2023, 11:48:27 AM »
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    • :laugh1:
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    Offline Afonso

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #36 on: December 28, 2023, 12:36:37 PM »
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    • Quote from: Matthew on December 27, 2023, 08:31:22 AM
    Sedevacantism without "conclavism" is completely useless and superfluous.

    It's like after a complete collapse scenario (no grid electricity, Internet, public utilities anywhere), a complete Mad Max scenario, having some survivors "pro Internet" and others being "anti Internet". Now if a group of survivors was trying to actively rebuild electronics and computers from the ground up, and actively working to rebuild the Internet, that would be something. But that would be the equivalent of "conclavist sedevacantism".

    At least the conclavists are consistent, and giving some MEANING to their sedevacantism. They are trying to "do something about it". To bring the theory into the practical realm, so it has SOME relevance or reason to actually hold the position.

    My position is that sedevacantism, unless you add conclavism, is no better and usually worse than "plain vanilla" Traditional Catholicism. It adds nothing, and solves nothing. All it adds is another point of division, another reason for parishioners to stay home on Sunday when there's not a "sede" group chapel within driving distance.

    Yes, many sedes are more practical than that (they aren't "dogmatic" about it; they are willing to attend SSPX for example) but why start a movement like "sedevacantism" when a certain percent are going to be dogmatic about it (unnecessarily divisive and condemnatory) and/or end up Home Aloners?

    Zero upsides, nothing but downsides!

    Would you take a medicine that has no chance of helping you with anything, but has a 30% chance of killing you? Neither would I.

    There may be some truth in this, but I’m struggling to see how this would not also apply to the Resistance. In practice, in their actions, they reject the Catholic Hierarchy.
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    Offline Mysterium Fidei

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #37 on: December 28, 2023, 01:14:24 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on December 28, 2023, 09:37:07 AM
    What you should notice is the R&R people fully understand there is nothing anyone can do about a pope who is a heretic. Proclaiming the pope is not the pope serves no good purpose whatsoever - as per the OP.
    It has been said that sedevacantism adds nothing to the traditional Catholic movement. I would like to know exactly what the R&R movement is resisting? You recognize Jorge Bergoglio as your pope. The R&R folks apparently believe that the Catholic Church can promulgate error and heresy to the universal Church, that it can give evil doctrines and disciplines, and that it can promote a Protestantized "mass."

    The R&R people have had to throw overboard Catholic teaching concerning the papacy and the infallibility and indefectibility of the Church, and the infallibility of canonizations. You believe that a true pope can sign a docuмent praising false religions, participate in pagan ceremonies in which an Amazonian fertility goddess can be prayed to, and now that a pope can approve the blessing of sodomite relationships.

    The SSPX have consistently held out the possibility or have actually pursued the possibility of a reconciliation with the modernists in Rome in order to have their side chapel of tradition under the auspices of the Novus Ordo religion.

    To me, it is the sedevacantists that are actually resisting the modernists in Rome by totally separating from them and refusing to recognize them as Catholic in any way. It is the only position that has not in some way compromised itself with the new modernist religion.

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    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #38 on: December 28, 2023, 01:42:06 PM »
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    • Quote from: Mysterium Fidei on December 28, 2023, 01:14:24 PM
    It has been said that sedevacantism adds nothing to the traditional Catholic movement.
    That's not entirely accurate, to be correct, we say sedeism adds nothing *good* to the traditional Catholic movement. Which, we call it a "movement" but it's no movement really. What it is, is preserving the faith.

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    I would like to know exactly what the R&R movement is resisting? You recognize Jorge Bergoglio as your pope. The R&R folks apparently believe that the Catholic Church can promulgate error and heresy to the universal Church, that it can give evil doctrines and disciplines, and that it can promote a Protestantized "mass."
    The so called "R&R" is resisting the heresies of the conciliar church and new religion by keeping the faith. Because we accept that nobody on earth can do anything about heretical popes, we do this without regard to the status of the conciliar popes and hierarchy, exactly as we have since this crisis began - because they are all heretics and preach all manner of error, we cannot listen to them. It's just that simple.

    Sedes, for reasons only they know, confuse the situation by complicating it with absurd cliche's, like R&R 
    "had to throw overboard Catholic teaching concerning the papacy and the infallibility and indefectibility of the Church, and the infallibility of canonizations" and on and on and whatever else on and on as they divide out from other trads over it.

    These cliches are mostly total BS, although some of them are something less than total BS, but BS none the less.

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    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #39 on: December 28, 2023, 02:08:47 PM »
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    • Quote from: Matthew on December 27, 2023, 08:31:22 AM
    Sedevacantism without "conclavism" is completely useless and superfluous.
    Yes sedevacantism at its fruition could lead to "conclavism" (hence we have Pope Michael) but R&R at its fruition could lead to compromising with Pope Francis and modern Rome. (hence we have ffsp, indult and the neo sspx) both situations don't feel right to a person who is trying to be the Catholic that the Saints were.  I think we on this forum are really in the same boat and we need to be generous and charitable to those who look at it from a slightly different way.  We just can't answer this Pope question right now and the best thing to do is be the best Catholic we know how to be, with conquering ourselves and practicing virtues.  We have absolutely no control over the Pope.  We need the Sacraments to raise a generation of Catholics who God will give a good Pope, too.  Just saying.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #40 on: December 28, 2023, 02:18:12 PM »
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    • Quote from: Gray2023 on December 28, 2023, 02:08:47 PM
    Yes sedevacantism at its fruition could lead to "conclavism" ...

    It could, but most SVs have enough common sense to realize that being elected Pope primarily on the votes of your parents does not constitute a legitimate papal election, despite a vacancy.  SVs who have said common sense realize that such an election must be accepted by all the faithful as legitimate.  Let's imagine, hypothetically, that Jorge takes the next step where even the formerly R&R types have to admit the guy can't be the pope, and all Traditional Catholics (bishops, priests, faithful) get together to elect a Pope, then do so and all acknowledge him as the Pope.  That might hold water.  But some of these other elections, you just have to know from common sense that they're not legitimate.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #41 on: December 28, 2023, 04:30:43 PM »
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    • As problematic as Conclavism is, it's the only thing that would give "sedevacantism" any value.

    Without that practical application of their "conclusion" re: the Pope, they are living the same life as any average R&R, including all the things (inconsistencies, issues, etc.) they criticize them for.

    Sedevacantists say, "What use is saying there's a Pope if you don't give him full obedience?"
    Recognize-and-Resist can say, "What use is declaring the See vacant, what use is protecting the purity of the Papacy, if you're just going to happily live without a Pope for 6 decades and do NOTHING about it?"

    Both sides have serious Pope issues.
    Welcome to the Crisis in the Church.

    Sedevacantists today don't get the 1980's "pass" that they used to get. They could suggest "Maybe he's not the Pope" and that wasn't a huge issue. We've had interregna before. But a 63 year interregnum? With all due respect, that's more insane than anything they criticize R&R for.

    We're not saying there's not a Crisis. We're saying there's no good reason to go sedevacantist. Laymen can't depose a sitting Pope, period. OR DECLARE HIM INVALID/DEPOSED.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #42 on: December 28, 2023, 04:36:08 PM »
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    • Bp. Faure once said that the Resistance is attacked on two fronts: On the Left, there are the ralliers who believe that we should reconcile with Modernist Rome, and on the Right, there are the sedevacantists who are very much opposed to us, even though a few of them attend Resistance chapels. And yet....one of these two groups is allowed to promote their anti-Resistance propaganda without censure. Why is that?

    This forum is supposed to be...."A message board for SSPX, Resistance, and other traditional Catholics to discuss news and matters pertaining to the Catholic Faith."

    Well, for one thing, SSPX trads are very much maligned here, as are Resistance trads. And we cannot really discuss any news because the Sedes will just tell us that if we believe that the Pope is the Pope, then we have to fully submit to him. And... some of them are dishonest - that's the worst thing, because one cannot properly debate with liars. It's a deplorable situation. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #43 on: December 28, 2023, 04:54:26 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on December 28, 2023, 10:57:03 AM
    I mean no disrespect, but if you truly believe the above, then why allow the sedevacantists to take over the forum?

    More snowflaking.  If by "tak[ing] over the forum", you mean that sedevacantists participate actively in it and seem more engaged in discussions than many of the Resistance mindset, that's also a corollary to the realization that the forum would likely be reduced to 10-20% of its current activity were the SVs banned and only those of the Resistance remained.  At the end of the day, it's Matthew's forum, and if you don't like the fact that he permits this kind of debate here, you can go start your own Resistance forum and moderate the 3-4 posts you would get each day (mostly by you).

    Besides, Meg, were it not for the SVs, you yourself would not participate, since the 90% of your activity here involves drive-by insults of sedevacantists.  Admit it that you love to hate the sedevacantists.  But I can't recall a single post of yours (in recent memory anyway) that has contributed anything of substance to any debate or discussion.

    In any case, the reason that I've participated a great deal here at CI (and no other forum ... except for two accounts on Catholic.com that were banned after one or two posts each) for so long is precisely because of the interaction between different types and mindsets of Traditional Catholics, something one can rarely find due to the different battle camps that have gone up among the different factions.  I'm pretty tech savy myself and could easily set up a "sedeprivationist" or "Siri theory" forum ... and then listen to the crickets chirping, not to mention that it would be boring as all getout if all we did was high five one another and pat each other on the back and "preach" to the choir.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #44 on: December 28, 2023, 04:56:31 PM »
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    • Quote from: Matthew on December 28, 2023, 04:30:43 PM
    But a 63 year interregnum? With all due respect, that's more insane than anything they criticize R&R for.

    34 years.  +Siri reigned as Pope Gregory XVII through 1989 :laugh1:
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