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Author Topic: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides  (Read 24156 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
« Reply #120 on: December 29, 2023, 11:43:18 AM »
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  • I posted what the popes teach the Church's magisterium is, you choose to disbelieve, of all people, the popes.

    No, your typical modus operandi it to present your misinterpretations of Magisterium as Magisterium.  This is precisely the point of the living Magisterium, to shoot down idiotic (and sometimes malicious) misinterpretations of Magisterium.

    And it's laughable for you to cite Magisterium when you sift the Magisterium anyway, so you're citing Magisterium that you happen to agree with ... but the ignore the walls of Magisterium that condemn your position.

    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #121 on: December 29, 2023, 11:49:16 AM »
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  • At least we aren't liars. That has to count for something.
    If you ignore Canon 188.4 of the 1917 Code of Canon Law which footnotes Ex cuм Apostolatus, while simultaneously accusing sedevacantism of being condemned by the Church you are indeed a liar. 
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...


    Offline Your Friend Colin

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #122 on: December 29, 2023, 11:54:05 AM »
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  • Magisterium:

    "...all that has been handed down as divinely revealed by the ordinary teaching authority of the entire Church spread over the whole world, and which, for this reason, Catholic theologians, with a universal and constant consent, regard as being of the faith." - Pope Pius IX, Tuas Libenter

    Always infallible.
    No, I was asking how “non sede trads are already in submission to the living Magisterium” 

    The living Magisterium is the current  teaching Church. 

    how are you in submission to them?

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #123 on: December 29, 2023, 11:55:46 AM »
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  • If you ignore Canon 188.4 of the 1917 Code of Canon Law which footnotes Ex cuм Apostolatus, while simultaneously accusing sedevacantism of being condemned by the Church you are indeed a liar.
    By the way, that part of Bishop Pivarunas' talk was new to me.  I did not know about that footnote.  

    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #124 on: December 29, 2023, 12:07:12 PM »
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  • No, your typical modus operandi it to present your misinterpretations of Magisterium as Magisterium.  This is precisely the point of the living Magisterium, to shoot down idiotic (and sometimes malicious) misinterpretations of Magisterium.

    And it's laughable for you to cite Magisterium when you sift the Magisterium anyway, so you're citing Magisterium that you happen to agree with ... but the ignore the walls of Magisterium that condemn your position.
    All you need to do, is believe them. Be not unbelieving Lad.....
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #125 on: December 29, 2023, 12:12:26 PM »
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  • No, I was asking how “non sede trads are already in submission to the living Magisterium”

    The living Magisterium is the current  teaching Church.

    how are you in submission to them?
    We are in submission to the living Magisterium, which is the Church teaching us, and has nothing to do with the conciliar church. Again, all you need to do is believe what the popes teach. Very easy for me to say because I've always believed them, very difficult for sedes because they have have to overcome the wrong idea of what the magisterium even is.  But the answer is, all you need to do is believe the popes in the link and I would think that is should begin to make sense to you.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #126 on: December 29, 2023, 12:13:05 PM »
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  • Quote
    Stubborn reduces the authority of the Magisterium to a tautology.  If it's Traditional, it has authority and is Magisterium.  If it's not Traditional, then it has no authority and is not Magisterium. 
    Every Trad does this, in one way or another.  Sedes do it with the 1955 Holy Week changes, among many other things.

    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #127 on: December 29, 2023, 12:22:21 PM »
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  • At least we aren't liars. That has to count for something.
    What are you?  If Pope Francis is the Pope, then I am assuming you attend a Mass that is outside his domain.  That is officially called Schism.  How are you not in Schism with the Catholic Church of Pope Francis?  Do you say Pope Saint Paul IV?  Do you say Pope Saint John XXIII? May God have Mercy on us all for the confusing times we live in.  Maybe the next time you want to call other liars, you should pray a decade of the Rosary instead.  And I am sorry I am being mean.  It is called tough love.
    1 Corinthians: Chapter 13 "4 Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely; is not puffed up; 5 Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil;"


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #128 on: December 29, 2023, 12:23:57 PM »
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  • Every Trad does this, in one way or another.  Sedes do it with the 1955 Holy Week changes, among many other things.

    Apart from the fact that the Holy Week changes aren't Magisterium, the argument made by the SVs who reject the Holy Week changes (not all due, e.g. CMRI, so it's unfair to lump all SVs into this group) is based on the notion of "epikeia", that if there were a legitimate Pope, he'd roll back the changes, having seen in hindsight how they contributed to the liturgical revolution.

    Offline Hank Igitur

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #129 on: December 29, 2023, 12:24:55 PM »
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  • Every Trad does this, in one way or another.  Sedes do it with the 1955 Holy Week changes, among many other things.
    Not every trad reduces the authority of the Magisterium to a tautology. However, every R&R trad does so by "sifting" what he doesn't like. And comparing every R&R trad to the sedes concerning the 1955 Holy Week changes is a false equivalence 
    because not all sedes ignore the 1955 Holy Week changes. The CMRI, for example, uses all of the Pope Pius XII changes (including 1955 Holy Week changes and the 1958 Dialogue Masses). So while it was a good effort on your part to lump all sedes with all R&R together, it just isn't so. 

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #130 on: December 29, 2023, 12:42:15 PM »
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  • Quote
    Apart from the fact that the Holy Week changes aren't Magisterium, 

    :confused:  How are they not?


    Quote
    the argument made by the SVs who reject the Holy Week changes (not all due, e.g. CMRI, so it's unfair to lump all SVs into this group) is based on the notion of "epikeia", that if there were a legitimate Pope, he'd roll back the changes, having seen in hindsight how they contributed to the liturgical revolution.
    1.  If the Holy Week changes weren't part of the Magisterium, then that means they're optional, so the use of 'epikeia' is unnecessary.

    2.  The use of 'epikeia' is totally arbitrary.  It's a case of "there's no one in charge, so i'm going to do whatever I want."  It's not really an argument; it's an excuse.


    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #131 on: December 29, 2023, 12:44:31 PM »
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    every R&R trad does so by "sifting" what he doesn't like....because not all sedes ignore the 1955 Holy Week changes.
    There's just as much variation of R&R, as there is in sedeism.  

    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #132 on: December 29, 2023, 01:13:52 PM »
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  • By the way, that part of Bishop Pivarunas' talk was new to me.  I did not know about that footnote. 
    That footnote in the 1917 Code of Canon Law that references cuм Ex Apostolatus is important because the SSPX and Resistance priests (who all picked the argument up from Fr. Hesse) make the claim that cuм Ex Apostolatus was only human (ecclesiastical) law and not Divine Law and was replaced with new provisions regarding the election of a pope. However, sedevacantists have always argued that it is Divine Law that a heretic is not a member of the Church and cannot be its head. The proof of this is that the same popes that they say replaced this law, actually included it in their Code of Canon Law. That means that anyone who repeats the argument of Fr. Hesse after having knowledge of this is a liar. Something that sedevacantists are accused of but the proof and dishonesty is there. Canon 188.4 and its footnote prove the sede vacante position as being the true position of the Catholic Church in the case of a manifest heretic pope. Any discussion referencing St. Robert Bellarmine is pointless. We have the Code of Canon Law of the Church in very clear language referencing also cuм Ex Apostolatus. This is what sold me entirely to the sede vacante position regarding Bergoglio Jorge. 
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #133 on: December 29, 2023, 02:46:29 PM »
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  • That footnote in the 1917 Code of Canon Law that references cuм Ex Apostolatus is important because the SSPX and Resistance priests (who all picked the argument up from Fr. Hesse) make the claim that cuм Ex Apostolatus was only human (ecclesiastical) law and not Divine Law and was replaced with new provisions regarding the election of a pope. However, sedevacantists have always argued that it is Divine Law that a heretic is not a member of the Church and cannot be its head. The proof of this is that the same popes that they say replaced this law, actually included it in their Code of Canon Law. That means that anyone who repeats the argument of Fr. Hesse after having knowledge of this is a liar. Something that sedevacantists are accused of but the proof and dishonesty is there. Canon 188.4 and its footnote prove the sede vacante position as being the true position of the Catholic Church in the case of a manifest heretic pope. Any discussion referencing St. Robert Bellarmine is pointless. We have the Code of Canon Law of the Church in very clear language referencing also cuм Ex Apostolatus. This is what sold me entirely to the sede vacante position regarding Bergoglio Jorge.
    See, this is the type of total BS I mentioned earlier. Ah, but say something and we're whining - BS. Have you ever even read cuм ex?

    If you had and didn't understand that if it were still in force, having deviated from the faith before their conversion to the true faith, that all of "the Nine" could not have been ordained to the priesthood. The same for all sedes, the same for all other converts, including every single NO convert, then you did not understand what you read.

    Certainly Pope Leo XIII would have broke Divine Law by elevating to Cardinal, John Henry Newman, who was an ex Anglican priest. This is an act cuм ex explicitly, repeatedly condemns. Does that make me a liar for pointing this out? Does that make Pope Leo XIII an anti-pope or just outside of the Church?

    If you ever read cuм ex, you would have seen that no where in cuм ex is any abjuration accepted, not ever. Once they (any cleric or religious whatsoever) deviated from the faith, they're done. Their end is, per Pope Paul IV in cuм ex, is that they are to be abandoned, shunted away to some monastery or religious house "to perform perpetual penance upon the bread of water and the water of affliction" - per cuм ex:
    Quote
    (ii) that, moreover, they shall be unfit and incapable in respect of these things and that they shall be
    held to be backsliders and subverted in every way, just as if they had previously abjured heresy of this
    kind in public trial; that they shall never at any time be able to be restored, returned, reinstated or
    rehabilitated to their former status or Cathedral, Metropolitan, Patriarchal and Primatial Churches, or
    the Cardinalate, or other honour, any other dignity, greater or lesser, any right to vote, active or passive,
    or authority, or Monasteries and benefices, or Countships, Baronies, Marquisates, Dukedoms, Kingships
    and positions of Imperial power; but rather that they shall be abandoned to the judgement of the
    secular power to be punished after due consideration, unless there should appear in them signs of true
    penitence and the fruits of worthy repentance, and, by the kindness and clemency of the See itself, they shall have been sentenced to sequestration in any Monastery or other religious house in order to
    perform perpetual penance upon the bread of sorrow and the water of affliction;
     

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: Sede - Zero upsides, nothing but downsides
    « Reply #134 on: December 29, 2023, 03:29:01 PM »
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  • Stubborn,

    My argument is not based on cuм Ex Apostolatus. My argument is based on Canon 188.4 of the 1917 Code of Canon Law. The Code of Canon Law merely footnotes cuм Ex Apostolatus. I acknowledged that there are counter-arguments to cuм Ex Apostolatus. I do not know of any valid argument to the Code of Canon Law of 1917, unless one were to reject that CoCL in favor of the 1983 CoCL. Heresy by notoriety of fact without the need for any declarations whatsoever are the key problem for those who reject the sede vacante position. It is here wherein the argument lies that there is no counter. Accepting a heretic pope leads one to reject the 1983 CoCL and enter into the Novus Ordo sect as many have done. The only tenable position in light of this is the sede vacante position. cuм Ex Apostolatus is nothing more than an intersting footnote. Canon 188.4 is the heart of the matter when notoriety of fact is applied from the same Code of Canon Law. 
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...