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Author Topic: Sede vacante since 1012?  (Read 1847 times)

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Offline Matthew

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Sede vacante since 1012?
« on: September 26, 2021, 03:00:07 PM »
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    In spring 2021, I discovered conclusive evidence that everyone from "BeneDict VIII" onward from 1012 forward was a simonious heretic AntiPope, everyone from "Paschal II" onward from 1100 forward was an idolatrous apostate AntiPope, everyone from Anselmo D'Aosta and Pierre Abélard onwards from circa 1100 to 1150 forward was a heretic pseudotheologian, everything from "Lateran 1" onward from 1122 forward was an invalid Conciliábulo, everyone from Bernard De ClairVaux and Gratian onwards from 1140 forward was a heretic pseudotheologian or pseudocanonist, everyone from Tommaso D'Aquino and Hostiensis D'Susa from 1250 forward was an apostate pseudotheologian or pseudocanonist, and, before that, it's a case by case basis. Anyone who wants to see this evidence can watch the docuмentaries.

    Miguel PasaMano
    migueljuanpasamano@gmail.com

    This LunaTic seems to have a thing for randomly putting longer words in CamelCase.


    Someone wrote back to him:


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    Dear Acolyte of Ibranyi, you discovered nothing.  You were simply deluded by the sophistry of a false Christ.

    To which Miguel replied:

    Quote
    Dear Acolyte of yourself David Landry. You know nothing of who discovered what. You would have taken a similar SedeVacantIst position if you were of good will but you chose to remain deluded by the pseudosophistries of antiChrists from the 2nd millennium even after you saw the evidence against them. You would have never known about the apostate AntiPopes "BeneDict XIIII", "Pius VII", and "Gregorius XVI" had Guillermo and I never said anything to you about it just before the planscamdemic started! You probably don't know the "heliocentrism" apostasy started under the apostate AntiPope "Clement XI" and escalated under the apostate AntiPope "Clement XII"! Do you even know what a red herring is? I will give you 3 examples: Leonard Feeney, the Dimonds' career as conmen, and Richard Ibranyi's delusions of being 1 of the 2 WitNesses against the Dogma that Prophets Saints Elias and Enoch are the 2 WitNesses. Newsflash: the mortal sins of detraction and calumny don't work with INFJ-Ts!
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Sede vacante since 1012?
    « Reply #1 on: September 26, 2021, 03:03:46 PM »
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  • I must say, this IS one of the dangers of Sedevacantism. Once you get in your head that only holy popes without major scandal can be true popes, it can lead to this insane conclusion.

    I'd say this extreme Sedevacantist is very close to losing the Faith, but I fear that ship has already sailed.

    This lunatic has even excommunicated St. Thomas Aquinas! He believes in a 1,000 year interregnum.

    Remember I was saying yesterday that a 63 year interregnum is highly unlikely? But 100% of Sedevacantists don't have a problem with it -- eventually, many of them would rather embrace a 1,000 year interregnum -- or errors similar to this Ibranyi lunatic -- rather than consider that they might have been wrong. I would wager that some, perhaps many (but not all) would be more inclined to LENGTHEN the interregnum, after further personal study/interpretation, rather than shorten it or reverse their position. In other words, they are more likely to double-down and dig in, than ever admit they might be wrong.

    I remember what a great Catholic theologian said about sedevacantists: that they hold the same basic error as the Conciliarists (an exaggerated papal infallibility and papal authority), but the road they take, their practical behavior drawn from their belief, is the opposite.
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    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Sede vacante since 1012?
    « Reply #2 on: September 26, 2021, 03:27:15 PM »
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  • Kind of reminds me of the position that independent researcher Michael Hoffman holds, where he adheres to the Catholic Church of "St. Thomas Aquinas and Dante" and pretty much doubts all Popes and Saints after the Renaissance.

    It's a ludicrous rabbit hole that some go down until they create their own personal Christianity, not unlike the Protestants. Totalist Sedeism does not work, it has no apparent solution outside of direct divine intervention and no cohesive starting point because anyone can argue so-and-so is not a Pope because of some apparent heresy (like Pius XII's approval of Holy Week, etc). There are no more Cardinals, so no way to get a Pope, no more Bishops outside of rogue traddy ones, so no more jurisdiction, and very few valid priests who are only recognized depending on which cult of sedevacantism you adhere to.

    I honestly can't adhere to such hair-splitting any longer.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Sede vacante since 1012?
    « Reply #3 on: September 26, 2021, 03:57:25 PM »
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  • I honestly can't adhere to such hair-splitting any longer.

    What can't you adhere to any longer? Catholicism? Sedevacantism? Your statement here isn't very clear.
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    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Sede vacante since 1012?
    « Reply #4 on: September 26, 2021, 04:03:17 PM »
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  • What can't you adhere to any longer? Catholicism? Sedevacantism? Your statement here isn't very clear.
    Quote
    depending on which cult of sedevacantism you adhere to.
    This. If you go SGG, then there's a stigma against SSPV, or SSPV versus SGG, or issues with Thuc line bishops, non una cuм, etc. etc.

    The sedevacantist hardliners have split traditional Catholicism into a variety of factions among themselves. You can't even hold to sedeprivationism anymore according to some of them because "no valid Cardinals". It's chaos.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]


    Offline Cryptinox

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    Re: Sede vacante since 1012?
    « Reply #5 on: September 26, 2021, 04:17:26 PM »
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  • I have seen this guy. I remember when he held Benedict XIV was the first of the line of antipopes.

    Offline Caraffa

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    Re: Sede vacante since 1012?
    « Reply #6 on: September 26, 2021, 04:43:02 PM »
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  • The sedevacantist hardliners have split traditional Catholicism into a variety of factions among themselves. You can't even hold to sedeprivationism anymore according to some of them because "no valid Cardinals". It's chaos.

    You don't need cardinals to elect a pope, otherwise there would've been no popes for the first millennium of the church. 
    Pray for me, always.

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Sede vacante since 1012?
    « Reply #7 on: September 26, 2021, 05:33:06 PM »
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  • You don't need cardinals to elect a pope, otherwise there would've been no popes for the first millennium of the church.
    I am aware, which is why, despite the hate for them, Conclavists are actually attempting to do something about the sede vacante that is claimed to be ongoing. Instead, these sects continue to fight with each other over whose pet theological answer is correct.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]


    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Sede vacante since 1012?
    « Reply #8 on: September 26, 2021, 08:56:56 PM »
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  • I must say, this IS one of the dangers of Sedevacantism. Once you get in your head that only holy popes without major scandal can be true popes, it can lead to this insane conclusion.
    .
    If this were true, sedevacantists wouldn't accept Pope John XII. Major scandal? Get a load of what he was accused of at the Synod of Rome in 963:
    .
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    Then, rising up, the cardinal priest Peter testified that he himself had seen John XII celebrate Mass without taking communion. John, bishop of Narni, and John, a cardinal deacon, professed that they themselves saw that a deacon had been ordained in a horse stable, but were unsure of the time. Benedict, cardinal deacon, with other co-deacons and priests, said they knew that he had been paid for ordaining bishops, specifically that he had ordained a ten-year-old bishop in the city of Todi ... They testified about his adultery, which they did not see with their own eyes, but nonetheless knew with certainty: he had fornicated with the widow of Rainier, with Stephana his father's concubine, with the widow Anna, and with his own niece, and he made the sacred palace into a whorehouse. They said that he had gone hunting publicly; that he had blinded his confessor Benedict, and thereafter Benedict had died; that he had killed John, cardinal subdeacon, after castrating him; and that he had set fires, girded on a sword, and put on a helmet and cuirass. All, clerics as well as laymen, declared that he had toasted to the devil with wine. They said when playing at dice, he invoked Jupiter, Venus and other demons. They even said he did not celebrate Matins at the canonical hours [:laugh1::laugh1::laugh1::incense:] nor did he make the sign of the cross.

    .l
    But sedevacantists have no trouble accepting him as pope. In fact, his inerrancy is something remarkable, as described by a Catholic historian:
    .
    Quote
    Divine providence, watching over the Church, miraculously preserved the deposit of faith, of which this young voluptuary was the guardian. This Pope’s life was a monstrous scandal, but his bullarium is faultless. We cannot sufficiently admire this prodigy. There is not a heretic or a schismatic who has not endeavored to legitimate his own conduct dogmatically: Photius tried to justify his pride, Luther his sensual passions, Calvin his cold cruelty. Neither Sergius III nor John XII nor Benedict IX nor Alexander VI, supreme pontiffs, definers of the faith, certain of being heard and obeyed by the whole Church, uttered, from the height of their apostolic pulpit, a single word that could be an approval of their disorders.
    At times John XII even became the defender of the threatened social order, of offended canon law, and of the religious life exposed to danger.
    (Mourret, A History of the Catholic Church, vol. 3, pp. 510-511; underlining added.)



    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Sede vacante since 1012?
    « Reply #9 on: September 26, 2021, 09:21:40 PM »
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  • Before I even read two or three sentences, I said, yep, this has "RJMI" written all over it.  He's quite the interesting character. 

    One thing I will give him, he writes very, very well.  Excellent writer.

    I have wondered if he is actually backing into becoming Orthodox, without even meaning to.  If he could ratchet his timeline back to 1054, I have to wonder if he'd end falling backwards into the Bosporus.  (But then again, Hagia Sophia is on the European side of that strait.)

    Offline Xenophon

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    Re: Sede vacante since 1012?
    « Reply #10 on: September 27, 2021, 04:01:58 AM »
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  • R.I is not a remotely Catholic nor properly a Sedevacantist but simply a deranged antichrist that gave himself authority due to the personal belief that he is Enoch and Elias of Revelation 11, so in other words, he is a wicked false prophet. Furthermore, his premise is illogical in itself, he believes that the Church was "Hellenized" by Greek philosophy and "culture," and that this is the reason for his insane position. In actuality, he is something like a Hussite and iconoclast. If you ask him for proof for his deranged claims, he points to the behavior of the general public and clergy during the early middle ages onward, then to statues and paintings of Greek mythos in Rome, if you ask him for texts, he points to St. Jerome, St. Thomas and St. Augustine referencing Greek philosophers. Ironically his main premise should therefore nullify Christianity since St. Paul was versed in the Greek philosophical schools, one finds this in Acts 17.

    Lastly, he insanely and criminally abuses animals. He told one of his very sad supporters that they must behead a cat because her fondness of the animal was akin to idolatry.

    MHFM has an article on him if anyone is interested.

    Please don't use him as an example for why Sedevacantism has it's faults, he's obviously a radical and deranged schismatic with no logical basis for any of his positions.
    “The Roman pontiff is the true vicar of Christ, the head of the whole church and the father and teacher of all Christians; and to him was committed in blessed Peter, by our lord Jesus Christ, the full power of tending, ruling and governing the whole church.” Council of Florence, Session 6


    Offline Xenophon

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    Re: Sede vacante since 1012?
    « Reply #11 on: September 27, 2021, 04:15:49 AM »
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  • I am aware, which is why, despite the hate for them, Conclavists are actually attempting to do something about the sede vacante that is claimed to be ongoing. Instead, these sects continue to fight with each other over whose pet theological answer is correct.
    I'm all for Conclavism but I don't see a solid road to it materializing. At the very least, if we take the theory of St. Bellarmine, we should have the Roman Clergy, so he says. I don't really see how this is possible. Then, if we say, perhaps just some bishops will suffice, which bishop is willing to cooperate with another in this? I have looked for them and sincerely have found none who weren't obviously schismatic.

    Then, this is on top of the requirement of mutual cooperation that is contingent on the very fact that certain theological positions on some controversial dogmatic topics will render that very cooperation impossible.

    Finally, if you were to find a bishop with the true positions and even eventually have 12 bishops, what guarantees their work, without a miracle, to be acknowledged by anyone? Perhaps God might give us a pope, but I'm afraid it would a pope for a handful of Catholics only. I doubt anyone would subject themselves to the true pope right now, R&R would be the first to reject him.
    “The Roman pontiff is the true vicar of Christ, the head of the whole church and the father and teacher of all Christians; and to him was committed in blessed Peter, by our lord Jesus Christ, the full power of tending, ruling and governing the whole church.” Council of Florence, Session 6

    Offline TKGS

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    Re: Sede vacante since 1012?
    « Reply #12 on: September 27, 2021, 06:29:15 AM »
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  • I must say, this IS one of the dangers of Sedevacantism. Once you get in your head that only holy popes without major scandal can be true popes, it can lead to this insane conclusion.
    This isn't a "danger" of sedevacantism.  It is a danger of Protestantism.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sede vacante since 1012?
    « Reply #13 on: September 27, 2021, 07:28:11 AM »
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  • I do agree that this could be an issue.  I knew a guy who decided that Pius IX was a heretic and not a true pope.  In that case, neither papal infallibility nor the dogma of the Immaculate Conception are actually dogmas.

    So the criteria for when a Pope can be questioned need to be clearly articulated.  There's a huge difference between Pius IX and Bergoglio.  This is where Universal Acceptance comes in, but its meaning is quite different than what modern proponents of R&R tend to hold.

    There are different stages involved in the hypothetical repudiation of a papal claimant by the Church.

    1) small group of individuals identify the problem
    2) concerns come to be considered legitimate by a growing number of Catholics
    3) universal rejection

    I think that we are at phase 2 of this process in the case of the V2 papal claimants, whereas we never made it out of phase 1 for popes like Pius IX or Pius XII.

    In phase one, you cannot reject a pope.  In phase 2, you can arrive at a papa dubius situation where you can reject their authority based on these well-founded and widespread concerns (that principle is laid out by various Catholic canonists).  In phase 3, you move on to a new conclave.

    We're in phase 2 and awaiting phase 3.  Problem is that due to the near-universal loss of faith, we're impeded from going on to phase 3.  That's what puts us in a sedeprivationist or sede-impoundist (Fr. Chazal) type of situation.  That's also what +Lefebvre means about having to wait for the Church to ultimately decide this question.

    This is what I mean by sede-doubtism.  These papal claimants get classified as papa dubius, making them at least effectively non-popes, awaiting final disposition by the Church (which is crippled by the Crisis and therefore unable to act decisively).

    Offline TKGS

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    Re: Sede vacante since 1012?
    « Reply #14 on: September 27, 2021, 07:52:18 AM »
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  • There are different stages involved in the hypothetical repudiation of a papal claimant by the Church.

    1) small group of individuals identify the problem
    2) concerns come to be considered legitimate by a growing number of Catholics
    3) universal rejection

    I think that we are at phase 2 of this process in the case of the V2 papal claimants, whereas we never made it out of phase 1 for popes like Pius IX or Pius XII.

    In that virtually all who claim the title, "Catholic", reject Bergoglio as their "rule of faith", I think we have long been at phase 3 of your analysis.