Author Topic: sede vacante (Read 590 times)

JohnAnthonyMarie · « **on:** February 19, 2016, 08:55:55 PM »

In a recent discussion, I read something that I would enjoy further elaboration.

Quote

Second, if you read what Fr Wathen actually says in this quote, he speaks out against sedevacantists - he says that the faithful cannot judge the Pope on their own authority, which is exactly right. Fr Wathen does not say that the Church cannot depose a heretical Pope, but that we can't do that on our private judgment as sedes do, and he is exactly right, which is I'm not a sedevacantist and I consider sedevacantism to be an error.

CMRI's "Theological Position: Sede Vacante" states,

Quote

it must be concluded that the modern hierarchy who have approved and implemented the errors of Vatican II no longer represent the Catholic Church and her lawful authority. This most certainly includes the one who confirmed, approved, decreed, and implemented these heretical teachings, namely Paul VI (Montini). Likewise included are his successors, namely, John Paul II (Wojtyla), Benedict XVI (Ratzinger), and Francis (Bergoglio), who have continued to implement these heretical teachings. Despite the lack of canonical warning and formal declaration of loss of office, their repeated acts of ecuмenism and their enforcement of the heresies of Vatican II and the new code of Canon Law, which are injurious to faith and morals, are manifestations of their pertinacity in heresy.

In my opinion, the modern (i.e. post Vatican2) theology is detrimental to my spiritual welfare, so I elect by my own free will to avoid it. I have made a judgement that is mine to make because before anyone else and for any other reason I am responsible and accountable for my actions. I do not have the ability to depose the modern hierarchy myself, but I do have the ability to avoid them completely, and openly disapprove of their obvious departure from Catholic Theology.

clare · « **Reply #1 on:** February 20, 2016, 02:40:21 AM »

Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie

...CMRI's "Theological Position: Sede Vacante" states,
Quote
it must be concluded that the modern hierarchy who have approved and implemented the errors of Vatican II no longer represent the Catholic Church and her lawful authority. This most certainly includes the one who confirmed, approved, decreed, and implemented these heretical teachings, namely Paul VI (Montini). Likewise included are his successors, namely, John Paul II (Wojtyla), Benedict XVI (Ratzinger), and Francis (Bergoglio), who have continued to implement these heretical teachings. Despite the lack of canonical warning and formal declaration of loss of office, their repeated acts of ecuмenism and their enforcement of the heresies of Vatican II and the new code of Canon Law, which are injurious to faith and morals, are manifestations of their pertinacity in heresy.
...

Does that mean that, according to the CMRI, there was a pope for about a month in 1978?

McCork · « **Reply #2 on:** February 20, 2016, 05:30:24 PM »

Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie

In a recent discussion, I read something that I would enjoy further elaboration.
Quote
Second, if you read what Fr Wathen actually says in this quote, he speaks out against sedevacantists - he says that the faithful cannot judge the Pope on their own authority, which is exactly right. Fr Wathen does not say that the Church cannot depose a heretical Pope, but that we can't do that on our private judgment as sedes do, and he is exactly right, which is I'm not a sedevacantist and I consider sedevacantism to be an error.

You should just attribute the quote to the author and ask him for elaboration. His moniker is "Avinger".

McCork · « **Reply #3 on:** February 20, 2016, 05:41:46 PM »

Quote from: clare

Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie
...CMRI's "Theological Position: Sede Vacante" states,
Quote
it must be concluded that the modern hierarchy who have approved and implemented the errors of Vatican II no longer represent the Catholic Church and her lawful authority. This most certainly includes the one who confirmed, approved, decreed, and implemented these heretical teachings, namely Paul VI (Montini). Likewise included are his successors, namely, John Paul II (Wojtyla), Benedict XVI (Ratzinger), and Francis (Bergoglio), who have continued to implement these heretical teachings. Despite the lack of canonical warning and formal declaration of loss of office, their repeated acts of ecuмenism and their enforcement of the heresies of Vatican II and the new code of Canon Law, which are injurious to faith and morals, are manifestations of their pertinacity in heresy.
...

Does that mean that, according to the CMRI, there was a pope for about a month in 1978?

1) I have no problem thinking that Paul VI died, or was done away with, before he actually approved of Vatican II in 1965, and thus remained a true pope for however long he lived, perhaps some years in some dungeon.

2) I have no problem believing that John Paul I, whose Pontificate lasted 1 month, was a true pope, because material heresy can co-exist with the papacy only for a brief time lacking unofficial actions. It could be that he retained the divine virtue of faith, very weakly, and was about to approve of Vatican II officially, and God allowed his demise because he was not of bad will in his terrible errors, and the promise of infallibility could not allow him to accidentally promote that travesty officially.

3) I have no problem believing John Paul II might have retained the divine virtue of Faith, so drowning in his errors, but that when he was elected, might have been a true pope for a short time, but when the graces of that state were given, he willfully rejected them and automatically ceased to be pope.

All doubtful, but possible scenarios. I know one thing....no true pope officially approved of Vatican II and the obsessive ecuмania coming out of Rome and inundating the Catholic world.

MyrnaM · « **Reply #4 on:** February 20, 2016, 06:27:39 PM »

It seems to me that those who insist on hanging on to the modern hierarchy just to pacify their position of wanting to say ... "see our authority, where is your authority Mr. Sede"? They actually believe that the Church can defect. While to be sedevacantist is to say the Church can not defect since we have God's promise, therefore, what looks like the hierarchy is not, but only an optical illusion.

Does it really matter at this stage of the game who was a true pope, how long, and when did he lose the office?

Is the man sitting in the Chair of Peter TODAY, a Catholic?

If you say yes, then you believe the Church can deceive. You believe the Church can defect.

To accept the sede position is to say, we believe in God's promise. The gates of Hell can not prevail against her SHE CAN NOT AND WILL NOT DEFECT.

The Mass is Jesus Christ, as is His Church.