Author Topic: sede vacante (Read 2872 times)

JohnAnthonyMarie · « **on:** November 17, 2014, 05:39:49 PM »

I am having difficulty rationalizing the sede vacante position because

Quote from: The Holy Gospel of Jesus Christ, According to St. Matthew

23:1 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to his disciples,
23:1 tunc Iesus locutus est ad turbas et discipulos suos

23:2 Saying: The scribes and the Pharisees have sitten on the chair of Moses.
23:2 dicens super cathedram Mosi sederunt scribae et Pharisaei

23:3 All things therefore whatsoever they shall say to you, observe and do: but according to their works do ye not; for they say, and do not.
23:3 omnia ergo quaecuмque dixerint vobis servate et facite secundum opera vero eorum nolite facere dicunt enim et non faciunt

Mabel · « **Reply #1 on:** November 17, 2014, 05:49:19 PM »

You should be reading approved commentaries along with Sacred Scripture. Don't be like a Protestant.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #2 on:** November 17, 2014, 05:54:02 PM »

This has absolutely no bearing on sedevacantism.

Jesus contrasts their teaching authority and their personal behavior. At no point does He say that one can reject their teaching authority due to their behavior. If nothing else, this backs up sedevacantism.

Cantarella · « **Reply #3 on:** November 17, 2014, 06:36:00 PM »

The point is how Our Lord dealt with the bad leaders of Israel at the time and the wicked authority. Instead of endorsing a deposing of the High Priest and declaring the Seat of Moses vacant, Our Lord did not not usurp the lawful authority of the very high priest who had Him put to death.

There is lesson for the sedevacantists here: If Our Lord counselled the Jєωs to observe the teaching of the Scribes and the Pharisees, then the sedes that think they can just deny and disobey lawful authority contradict the teachings of Christ. They share the same error of private judgment that ensnared the Jansenists and the Protestants in which they do not hear the Church but themselves.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #4 on:** November 17, 2014, 06:42:14 PM »

No, Cantarella, you completely misrepresent the sedevacantist thesis; this has nothing to do with "wicked" leaders.

If you were to follow Our Lord's advice and have no doubt whatsoever that these men are true Popes, Cantarella, then you must accept their teaching, including belief in Religious Liberty and the notion that non-Catholics can be saved; both are taught to you from the Chair of Peter.

andysloan · « **Reply #5 on:** November 17, 2014, 06:59:44 PM »

Dogma 6:6

"According to Christ's ordinance, Peter is to have successors in his Primacy over the whole Catholic Church and for all time. "

That is the end of the matter!

Or it should be..............!!!!

"The devils will have unusual power, the immaculate purity of our Order, and of others, will be so much obscured that there will be very few Christians who will obey the true Sovereign Pontiff and the Roman Church with loyal hearts and perfect charity." - St Francis of Assisi

St. Francis of Paola (1416-1507)
Prophesizes the future of the Catholic Church.

“During this unhappy period there will be laxity in divine and human precepts. Discipline will suffer. The Holy Canons will be completely disregarded and the clergy will not respect the laws of the Church. The Holy Canons and religious dogmas are clouded by senseless questions and elaborate arguments. As a result, no principle at all, however holy, authentic, ancient, and certain it may be, will not remain free of censure, criticism, false interpretations, modifications and delamination by man.
These are evil times, century full of dangers and calamities. Heresy is everywhere and the followers of heresy are in power almost everywhere. Bishops, prelates and priests say they are doing their duty, that they are vigilant. They seek all excuses but God will permit a great evil against His Church: Heretics and tyrants will come suddenly and unexpectedly, they will enter Rome and lay Rome to waste.”

Cantarella · « **Reply #6 on:** November 17, 2014, 07:02:22 PM »

Quote from: Mabel

You should be reading approved commentaries along with Sacred Scripture. Don't be like a Protestant.

Here are the annotations of original Douay - Rheims, Anno Domini 1582:

Quote

2. Chair of Moses God preserveth the truth of Christian religion in the Apostolic See of Rome, which is in the new law answerable to the chair of Moses, notwithstanding the Bishops of the same were never so wicked of life: yea though some traitor as ill as Judas were Bishop thereof, it should not be prejudicial to the Church and innocent Christians, for when our Lord providing said, Do that which the say, but do not as they do.August. Epist. 165

3. Whatsoever they shall say.] Why (saith St. Augustine) doest thou call the Apostolic Chair the chair of pestilence? If for the men, why? Did our Lord Jesus Christ for the Pharisees, any wrong to the Chair wherein the sat? Did he not commend that chair of Moses, that which they say, do ye. Those things if ye did well consider, you would not for the men whom you defame, blaspheme the See Apostolic, wherewith you do not communicate. And again he saith: Neither for the Pharisees (to whom you compare us not of wisdom but of malice) did our Lord command the Chair of Moses to be forsaken, in which hair verily he figured his own, for he warneth the people to do that which they say, and not to do that which they do, and that the holiness of the Chair be in no case forsaken, nor the unity of the flock divided, for the naughty Pastors.

Mabel · « **Reply #7 on:** November 17, 2014, 08:01:14 PM »

John,
I have no personal preference in convincing you one way or another, but I think you should hold off on such considerations during this point in your life. You were one of the people who helped to convince me to quit the Novus Ordo and you were one of the first well-balanced sedevacantists I had ever met. This line of reasoning is inconsistent with what I know of you. I think at this point though, it would be wise and prudent to put such a discussion on the shelf for another time, speaking from my knowledge of similar experiences.

JMJ,
pax tecuм philumena (aka Mabel)

JohnAnthonyMarie · « **Reply #8 on:** November 17, 2014, 08:55:56 PM »

Mabel,
God bless you always. You have my love in Christ.

As well you know, I am devoted to serving God with my heart and mind, so I can't help but to reconsider the more serious issues time and time again.

In the military, obedience is required. If bad leadership is exercised by a person in authority, there is no blame by the subject of that authority. Without obedience, there is no order, and in the place where order belongs, chaos fills the void.

Obedience, or the lack of it, is the primary cause of humanity's misfortune.

In the Scripture passage I mentioned, it is my personal observation that our Lord teaches

omnia ergo quaecuмque dixerint vobis servate et facite
all things therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do

The commentary reads, "When the Scribes and Pharisees faithfully expound the Law it is on the teaching-chair of Moses that they sit (<greek-word> aorist equivalent to the Semitic stative 'imperfect'; Black, 93). Accordingly they must be obeyed." The commentary then goes on to describe the errors of the very people that are to be obeyed, but that "this obedience should not lead to imitation because they are hypocrites at heart."

I contemplate if the same is not true with regard to the Chair of Saint Peter.

Faithfully yours,
In Christ Jesus,
John Anthony Marie Papa

PG · « **Reply #9 on:** November 17, 2014, 09:34:54 PM »

johnantoniemarie - I think about that verse in your OP often. And, I think of the precepts of the church as being the parallel for us that Christ would be referring to.

Mithrandylan · « **Reply #10 on:** November 17, 2014, 10:16:15 PM »

The Office of Peter is unique to the New Testament. It is not a continuation of the Chair of Moses but an entirely different thing belonging to the New Covenant, as opposed to the Old.

Just as the conditions for belonging to God's covenant changed with Christ's advent into the world, so to did the leadership and constitution of His established Church change.

Cantarella · « **Reply #11 on:** November 17, 2014, 10:47:20 PM »

Quote from: Mithrandylan

The Office of Peter is unique to the New Testament. It is not a continuation of the Chair of Moses but an entirely different thing belonging to the New Covenant, as opposed to the Old.

Just as the conditions for belonging to God's covenant changed with Christ's advent into the world, so to did the leadership and constitution of His established Church change.

Not according to the annotations in the Holy Scripture, 1582:

The See of Rome preserved in truth:

Quote

Matthew 23:

2. Chair of Moses God preserveth the truth of Christian religion in the Apostolic See of Rome, which is in the new law answerable to the chair of Moses, notwithstanding the Bishops of the same were never so wicked of life: yea though some traitor as ill as Judas were Bishop thereof, it should not be prejudicial to the Church and innocent Christians, for when our Lord providing said, Do that which the say, but do not as they do.August. Epist. 165

Cantarella · « **Reply #12 on:** November 17, 2014, 11:12:13 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

No, Cantarella, you completely misrepresent the sedevacantist thesis; this has nothing to do with "wicked" leaders.

If you were to follow Our Lord's advice and have no doubt whatsoever that these men are true Popes, Cantarella, then you must accept their teaching, including belief in Religious Liberty and the notion that non-Catholics can be saved; both are taught to you from the Chair of Peter.

The verse refers to Christ command on obedience to lawful authorities (the Pharisee and Scribes) who were in charge of interpreting and teaching God's Law, despite their opposition to Him. But notice that the command is not of blind obedience. His words are: " do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example. For they preach but they do not practice". The authority was legitimate and so Our Lord acknowledges it.

Quote

Christ commands the faithful of all time to obey the Church, and its supreme shepherd, as He commanded His disciples to obey the high priest who sat in the chair of Moses. And, in the Old Testament, when the high priest spoke from the Chair of Moses, arming himself with the ephod of authority over the people of God, he too was infallible, and had to be obeyed. Now the Chair of Moses protected a revelation that was but a shadow of greater things to come. If, therefore, the figure enjoyed the gift of infallibility, how much more so the fulfillment, the Chair of Peter, which was established by the Son of God Himself. Whereas, before, God had commanded His people to “hear” Moses, or the prophets, or the high-priest, now, by the very voice of the Messiah, all men to the end of time are commanded to ”hear the Church”, for “he that heareth not the Church” is to be treated as a “publican or a heathen.”

The question of obedience to the Roman Pontiff is beautifully described here by St. Bellarmine and it applies to our turbulent times:

Quote from: Bellarmine

Although it clearly follows from the circuмstances that the Pope can err at times and command things which must not be done, that we are not to be simply obedient to him in all things, that does not show that he must not be obeyed by all when his commands are good. To know in what cases he is to be obeyed and in what not … it is said in the Acts of the Apostles. “One ought to obey God rather than man:” therefore, were the Pope to command anything against Holy Scripture, or the articles of faith, or the truths of the Sacraments, or the commands of natural or divine law, he ought not to be obeyed, but in such commands, to be passed over (despiciendus). [as quoted in Turrencremata's Summa de Eccles.]

The error that non-Catholics can be saved (which is the very root of the Crisis and THE pre / post Vatican II rampant heresy), has not been officially or "infallibly" promulgated; goes against "Holy Scripture, or the articles of faith, or the truths of the Sacraments, or the commands of natural or divine law" and therefore, is to be passed over.

JohnAnthonyMarie · « **Reply #13 on:** November 19, 2014, 09:53:28 AM »

Quote from: Cantarella

The question of obedience to the Roman Pontiff is beautifully described here by St. Bellarmine and it applies to our turbulent times:

Quote from: Bellarmine

Although it clearly follows from the circuмstances that the Pope can err at times and command things which must not be done, that we are not to be simply obedient to him in all things, that does not show that he must not be obeyed by all when his commands are good. To know in what cases he is to be obeyed and in what not … it is said in the Acts of the Apostles. “One ought to obey God rather than man:” therefore, were the Pope to command anything against Holy Scripture, or the articles of faith, or the truths of the Sacraments, or the commands of natural or divine law, he ought not to be obeyed, but in such commands, to be passed over (despiciendus). [as quoted in Turrencremata's Summa de Eccles.]

Thank you for posting this.

McFiggly · « **Reply #14 on:** November 19, 2014, 10:20:57 AM »

Quote

All things therefore whatsoever they shall say to you, observe and do: but according to their works do ye not; for they say, and do not.

This applies to popes that are evil, e.g. a hypocrite of a pope that would correctly preach chastity but while having concubines for himself. The problem with the post-Vatican II popes is that what they PREACH is in itself wrong, so that we may not do and observe what they say to us.

Quote from: Cantarella

The point is how Our Lord dealt with the bad leaders of Israel at the time and the wicked authority. Instead of endorsing a deposing of the High Priest and declaring the Seat of Moses vacant, Our Lord did not not usurp the lawful authority of the very high priest who had Him put to death.

There is lesson for the sedevacantists here: If Our Lord counselled the Jєωs to observe the teaching of the Scribes and the Pharisees, then the sedes that think they can just deny and disobey lawful authority contradict the teachings of Christ. They share the same error of private judgment that ensnared the Jansenists and the Protestants in which they do not hear the Church but themselves.

The thing is that the Pharisees were still orthodox in their teaching. Do you think that if the Pharisees had said to worship idols that Christ would still have said to the people to obey their teaching?
The Pharisees were extremely orthodox in the law, it's just that they were proud hypocrites when it came to practising the law. The modernists are not orthodox in regards to the law at all, which is why the analogy is a false one.