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Author Topic: Sede-privationism separation of body and soul  (Read 4330 times)

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Offline gladius_veritatis

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Sede-privationism separation of body and soul
« on: December 20, 2010, 08:05:25 PM »
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  • I shall not go into details at the moment, but my take on things is this:

    The present crisis is like unto the death of Christ; i.e., we are now living, in a mystical manner, through the stage of the life of the Church that is analogous to the time Christ spent in the tomb.  

    He died -- i.e., His Body was separated from His Soul.

    Those who wish to safeguard their Faith in these trying days must "break" the law in order to do so.  The body (external framework, etc) of the Church has, in a manner, been separated from the soul (the Faith).

    To me, anyway, this makes the most sense -- and it is why I do not and cannot act as if all in the Novus are non-Catholic, and is also a big part of why I think the 'anti-una cuм' stance is untenable.  Men on all sides of this debate LOVE to throw out entire groups of people, despite the fact that no legal declaration has been made about the present state of things.  It is precisely the lack of such a legal, binding declaration which gives rise to the disputes.  If/when we have such a declaration, all men of good will shall happily accept it -- and there will be an end to the disputes.  

    Godspeed :)
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."


    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Sede-privationism separation of body and soul
    « Reply #1 on: December 20, 2010, 08:11:41 PM »
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  • FWIW, although I am not in favor of the 'anti-una cuм' stance, this does not mean I am 'in favor of', or seek to 'champion' una cuм Masses.  I simply mean that I do not think it is reasonable to argue that assistance at such Masses is, in se, mortally sinful (as Fr C and Bps. Dolan and Sanborn do).

    Those with whom I disagree have made their cases and I have read them, failing to be convinced.  Such is life in these times, but disagreement in such matters need not be cause for substantial conflict (even if such conflict has, in some cases, arisen).
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."


    Offline Arborman

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    Sede-privationism separation of body and soul
    « Reply #2 on: December 20, 2010, 08:22:57 PM »
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  • I think in this crisis it is fair to assume that the institution of the church has died, but the faith lives on.  Now we have to wait for the resurrection.
    To Jesus thru Mary, for the greater glory of God.

    Offline Gortan

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    Sede-privationism separation of body and soul
    « Reply #3 on: December 20, 2010, 09:14:22 PM »
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  • Moral Actions/Obligations

    This is seems to be a failed theme,"now we have to wait". The leaders, whom own the properties, have "waited" (on purpose?) for like 20+ years. Does not that smack of the condemned Quietist heresy? We gather around a the pope first, then the Holy Mass (with jurisdiction). Anything else is foreign to the mind of the Church.

    Offline stevusmagnus

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    Sede-privationism separation of body and soul
    « Reply #4 on: December 21, 2010, 08:52:41 AM »
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  • Interesting. I had heard the term but had not heard it fully explained. Thank you Eamon.


    Offline Roman Catholic

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    Sede-privationism separation of body and soul
    « Reply #5 on: December 21, 2010, 08:59:50 AM »
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  • Quote from: Gortan
    Moral Actions/Obligations

    This is seems to be a failed theme,"now we have to wait". The leaders, whom own the properties, have "waited" (on purpose?) for like 20+ years. Does not that smack of the condemned Quietist heresy? We gather around a the pope first, then the Holy Mass (with jurisdiction). Anything else is foreign to the mind of the Church.


    The heresy is called Quietism. Clearly you know nothing about it...

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12608c.htm

    Blunder on...

    Offline hollingsworth

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    Sede-privationism separation of body and soul
    « Reply #6 on: December 21, 2010, 11:47:42 AM »
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  • gladius:
    Quote
    Men on all sides of this debate LOVE to throw out entire groups of,(Catholic?) people, despite the fact that no legal declaration has been made about the present state of things. It is precisely the lack of such a legal, binding declaration which gives rise to the disputes.


    A lot of wisdom in what you say.  None of us have the knowledge, right or authority to throw anyone else out.

    Offline roscoe

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    Sede-privationism separation of body and soul
    « Reply #7 on: December 21, 2010, 12:00:48 PM »
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  • This is not GWS
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'


    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Sede-privationism separation of body and soul
    « Reply #8 on: December 21, 2010, 05:32:02 PM »
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  • Quote from: stevusmagnus
    Interesting. I had heard the term but had not heard it fully explained. Thank you Eamon.


    My pleasure, although I barely touched upon any of the technical details (not that I am even qualified to do so).

    Some sede-vacantists have more or less mocked the thesis, which was originally "formulated" by then-Father, later-Bishop Guérard des Lauriers, O.P.  FWIW, he held three doctorates (in philosophy, theology, and mathematics), more or less wrote The Ottaviani Intervention, and assisted in some manner with the formulation of the dogma of the Assumption.  While some might argue his thesis is incorrect, it is nonsense to act as if he was a slouch, didn't properly understand (as some have argued) the distinction between matter and form, etc.  You may read about him more elsewhere, should you choose, but he was a veritable genius and a truly decent and edifying man.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Sede-privationism separation of body and soul
    « Reply #9 on: December 21, 2010, 05:32:57 PM »
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  • Quote from: roscoe
    This is not GWS


    Thanks for clearing that one up for us, roscoe :)
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Sede-privationism separation of body and soul
    « Reply #10 on: December 21, 2010, 05:42:23 PM »
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  • Quote from: Gortan
    This is seems to be a failed theme,"now we have to wait".


    That is one way to look at it, but I think it is an incorrect one.

    Wisdom includes knowledge of limitations.  When I first came around 11 and 1/2 years ago, I could not fathom why no one had responded to this crisis as the Maccabees had responded during similarly dark days in Israel.  If ever someone should have been impaled/disembowled at an altar/table, it was Paul VI -- yet no one did so.  God saw fit to allow the abomination, years before I was even born.  

    When Jesus was in the tomb, Our Lady could have responded any number of ways.  She chose retired prayer, and those among the Apostles that had sense joined her.

    Sometimes the wisest thing is to wage war, etc., sometimes it is wiser to abide in peace.  Each circuмstance is different, as is each man.  Even in a time of war, it is NOT good for every man to act the same.  Some MUST fight, others should not.

    As Jesus' resurrection could not have been aided by ANY human agency, so this crisis, IMO, cannot be resolved by merely human agency.  We have helped create the wound; healing it is beyond our power.

    NOT the final word...just my two cents at the moment...

    Godspeed :)
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."


    Offline Bazz

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    Sede-privationism separation of body and soul
    « Reply #11 on: December 24, 2010, 08:18:01 AM »
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  • Fr. Dominic Radecki, CMRI gave a sermon a few years ago ( found at http://www.cmri.org/01-fdr-son-of-man.html )

    He leads off with a quote from a book (Path of Mary) in the late 1800's:
    Quote
    “The Church appears to be reaching the time when she will be mystically crucified with her Lord. The powers of darkness are evidently allowed a strange power of temptation: ‘It is their hour.’ Even many of Our Lord’s own have fallen away... We see that the Church is visibly afflicted, that the powers of hell are leagued more strongly than ever against her... The Church has already commenced that season of persecution, trial and temptation, in which she will, in herself, represent again the Passion of Our Lord.”


    Pope Pius XII said something similar in his encyclical Mystici Corporis:
    Quote
    "It is the will of Jesus Christ that the whole body of the Church, no less than the individual members, should, resemble Him...What wonder then, if, while on this earth, she like Christ, suffer persecutions, insults and sorrows."

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Sede-privationism separation of body and soul
    « Reply #12 on: December 24, 2010, 09:01:20 AM »
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  • Thank you for the quotes, Bazz.  Welcome to the forum :)
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline Belloc

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    Sede-privationism separation of body and soul
    « Reply #13 on: December 30, 2010, 01:37:56 PM »
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  • Sede-privationism-

    does anyone here beleive that thesisas opposed to Sedevacantism?

    I read the thesis, ut am still left  :scratchchin:
    Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Sede-privationism separation of body and soul
    « Reply #14 on: December 30, 2010, 04:02:07 PM »
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  • Quote from: Belloc
    does anyone here beleive that thesis is opposed to Sedevacantism?


    It is, and on some fundamental points -- although I have not yet gone into sufficient detail for that to be readily apparent.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."