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Offline SkidRowCatholic

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Re: Sede bishop begins to "work" towards electing a true Roman Pontiff...
« Reply #30 on: January 15, 2026, 11:38:00 PM »
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  • For option C:

    1. Roman clergy = Cardinal bishops following the papal election law in regard to constitutive norms. These are a subset of the College of Cardinals anyway. So if the entire college was doubtful but the Roman clergy were not doubtful, then that smaller group could make sense as a competent subject. But an ecuмenical council would be more secure.

    2. Universal Church = Ecuмenical Council with approval of last living Pope. This is the Council of Constance solution. This solution already worked. This would be the preferred solution because it would include the maximum number of validly-ordained bishops and would therefore calm consciences.

    Two clarifications are needed to keep Option C aligned with the actual teaching.

    1. Roman clergy as fallback subject
    Your instinct is correct that the Roman clergy represent the historically prior subject of papal election. But identifying them with cardinal bishops is not quite accurate.
    • Roman clergy as historically prior electors: In the classical manuals, “Roman clergy” refers to the presbyters and deacons of the Roman Church—the original electing body before the later development of the College of Cardinals.
    • Cardinal bishops as later juridical development: Cardinal bishops are not simply a subset of the Roman clergy; they are a later, papally‑constituted organ.
    • Fallback logic in total collapse: If the College became doubtful or unusable, the manuals argue that the Church could revert to the historically prior subject—not because they are a subset of the College, but because they are the root from which the College historically developed.
    So the Roman clergy option is not “the cardinal bishops who remain valid,” but rather the primitive electing subject supplied by natural law when the constituted subject cannot be instantiated.

    2. Universal Church as fallback subject
    Your second point—equating the “universal Church” with an ecuмenical council approved by the last living pope—needs refinement.
    • Constance as a providential, not normative, model: Constance worked because Gregory XII was alive and could authorize it.
    • Natural‑law fallback does not require papal approval: In the hypothetical scenario contemplated by Cajetan, Suárez, and John of St. Thomas, there is no certain pope—and therefore no one who can authorize a council.
    • Universal Church acting in extremis: The manuals teach that in a true collapse, the universal Church (represented by an imperfect council) could act precisely because no pope exists to authorize anything.
    Thus, the “universal Church” option is not “Constance repeated,” but the theoretical natural‑law remedy that would apply only if no Gregory XII existed to regularize the process.

    Trad clergy as fallback subject
    Even if every bishop with ordinary jurisdiction has been lost, impeded, or rendered doubtful, the Church does not lose the ability to act. Ordinary jurisdiction can be blocked, but episcopal character remains, and with it the Church’s natural‑law right to preserve her visible head. The manuals taken together strongly imply that in a total collapse of constituted authority, the Church’s capacity to act does not depend on the continued existence of diocesan governance but on the continued existence of publicly consecrated bishops who remain part of the hierarchical order. Their sacramental character is indelible, and their public identity as members of the episcopate is sufficient to prevent the Church from falling into juridical paralysis.

    These bishops, even without ordinary jurisdiction, still constitute a public and corporate subject. They are not private individuals acting on their own initiative but the remaining visible hierarchy of the Church. Because they retain the power of order and a public ecclesial identity, they are capable of acting corporately in extremis. This is precisely why the classical tradition distinguishes the power of order from the power of jurisdiction: when jurisdiction is impeded, the Church can still act through the power of order to preserve what is essential to her constitution.

    In such a situation, these bishops can assemble by natural law into what the manuals call an imperfect council. This gathering is not a juridically convoked ecuмenical council, since no pope exists to authorize it, but a natural‑law assembly of the remaining hierarchy whose competence is strictly limited to one act: designating or electing the man who can restore the papacy. The imperfect council does not claim supreme authority, does not legislate, and does not govern the Church. Its sole purpose is to restore the head so that ordinary jurisdiction can be reconstituted.

    This mechanism does not collapse into conciliarism because the imperfect council exists only to re‑establish the papal office, not to replace it. The bishops do not claim superiority over the pope or over the papal office; they simply act as the last remaining public organ of the Church when all constituted authority has failed. The moment a pope is restored, the imperfect council ceases to have any competence. In this way, the Church preserves visibility, apostolic succession, and the capacity to designate her head even in the most extreme imaginable collapse.

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Sede bishop begins to "work" towards electing a true Roman Pontiff...
    « Reply #31 on: January 16, 2026, 11:12:20 AM »
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  • Two clarifications are needed to keep Option C aligned with the actual teaching.

    1. Roman clergy as fallback subject
    Your instinct is correct that the Roman clergy represent the historically prior subject of papal election. But identifying them with cardinal bishops is not quite accurate.
    • Roman clergy as historically prior electors: In the classical manuals, “Roman clergy” refers to the presbyters and deacons of the Roman Church—the original electing body before the later development of the College of Cardinals.
    • Cardinal bishops as later juridical development: Cardinal bishops are not simply a subset of the Roman clergy; they are a later, papally‑constituted organ.
    • Fallback logic in total collapse: If the College became doubtful or unusable, the manuals argue that the Church could revert to the historically prior subject—not because they are a subset of the College, but because they are the root from which the College historically developed.
    So the Roman clergy option is not “the cardinal bishops who remain valid,” but rather the primitive electing subject supplied by natural law when the constituted subject cannot be instantiated.

    2. Universal Church as fallback subject
    Your second point—equating the “universal Church” with an ecuмenical council approved by the last living pope—needs refinement.
    • Constance as a providential, not normative, model: Constance worked because Gregory XII was alive and could authorize it.
    • Natural‑law fallback does not require papal approval: In the hypothetical scenario contemplated by Cajetan, Suárez, and John of St. Thomas, there is no certain pope—and therefore no one who can authorize a council.
    • Universal Church acting in extremis: The manuals teach that in a true collapse, the universal Church (represented by an imperfect council) could act precisely because no pope exists to authorize anything.
    Thus, the “universal Church” option is not “Constance repeated,” but the theoretical natural‑law remedy that would apply only if no Gregory XII existed to regularize the process.

    Trad clergy as fallback subject
    Even if every bishop with ordinary jurisdiction has been lost, impeded, or rendered doubtful, the Church does not lose the ability to act. Ordinary jurisdiction can be blocked, but episcopal character remains, and with it the Church’s natural‑law right to preserve her visible head. The manuals taken together strongly imply that in a total collapse of constituted authority, the Church’s capacity to act does not depend on the continued existence of diocesan governance but on the continued existence of publicly consecrated bishops who remain part of the hierarchical order. Their sacramental character is indelible, and their public identity as members of the episcopate is sufficient to prevent the Church from falling into juridical paralysis.

    These bishops, even without ordinary jurisdiction, still constitute a public and corporate subject. They are not private individuals acting on their own initiative but the remaining visible hierarchy of the Church. Because they retain the power of order and a public ecclesial identity, they are capable of acting corporately in extremis. This is precisely why the classical tradition distinguishes the power of order from the power of jurisdiction: when jurisdiction is impeded, the Church can still act through the power of order to preserve what is essential to her constitution.

    In such a situation, these bishops can assemble by natural law into what the manuals call an imperfect council. This gathering is not a juridically convoked ecuмenical council, since no pope exists to authorize it, but a natural‑law assembly of the remaining hierarchy whose competence is strictly limited to one act: designating or electing the man who can restore the papacy. The imperfect council does not claim supreme authority, does not legislate, and does not govern the Church. Its sole purpose is to restore the head so that ordinary jurisdiction can be reconstituted.

    This mechanism does not collapse into conciliarism because the imperfect council exists only to re‑establish the papal office, not to replace it. The bishops do not claim superiority over the pope or over the papal office; they simply act as the last remaining public organ of the Church when all constituted authority has failed. The moment a pope is restored, the imperfect council ceases to have any competence. In this way, the Church preserves visibility, apostolic succession, and the capacity to designate her head even in the most extreme imaginable collapse.

    The Church itself has never authorized those options. You can see the state of the Church's thinking in Billot's discussion. The Ecuмenical Council with Pope participation is viable. All other things are hypothetical, illegal and practically unworkable.

    1. Roman clergy option with your re-definition: this should be thrown out right away. Priests and deacons of the diocese of Rome, even if they could theoretically get together and meet, have no power to bind the universal Church. So it is best just to put this historically-assumed option away. It is ridiculous to think deacons, who are more numerous, could decide who the Pope is.

    2. Universal Church as ecuмenical council with Pope participation: this is the only viable answer. This is not so much a natural law fallback as it is an accepted fallback based on "the power of order" in constituting the College of Bishops and the living Pope as the head of that body. The Pope cannot be a Pope without the episcopal consecration. His election must be followed by episcopal consecration if he not already a bishop. When he convokes, presides, and approves of the Council, he is not doing so with juridical force. His authority is "moral authority" as the head of the College. The proof of this is that by convocation, he invites. He cannot compel participation. He presides by acclamation, not because he punishes others who might usurp. He approves but the other bishops are free to reject the findings of the Council approved by the Pope and therefore become heretics. As the head of the College of Bishops, his activities are collegial not juridical in nature. So he could have resigned his office (and not yet been replaced) and still be head of the College of Bishops. He retains the last See in his title of emeritus Bishop of Rome.

    3. The trad clergy option: With that title you have just identified it as a faction. In that respect, it would be incompatible with natural law because it is incompatible with the Four Precepts of Law: specifically, it would not be reasonable for a faction to choose a Pope for the Universal Church. It would be lack the subject who was care for the whole community. It would lack the ability to promulate because it is not the legitimate ruler. It is not consistent with the common good because it would cause dissension. So do not call it natural law option. It is neither natural nor legal. It is usurpation disguised as epekeia. It is pure fantasy, a second reality.



    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: Sede bishop begins to "work" towards electing a true Roman Pontiff...
    « Reply #32 on: January 16, 2026, 11:45:42 AM »
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  • Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: Sede bishop begins to "work" towards electing a true Roman Pontiff...
    « Reply #33 on: January 16, 2026, 12:38:32 PM »
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  • This should be put here as well for those interested: https://ttu-files.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/The_Election_of_the_Pope.pdf

    Within he states:

    Bishops without jurisdiction cannot elect the Pope

    We have seen that in abnormal circuмstances the election of the Pope - according to the thought of the theologians who have dealt with the question - falls to the imperfect General Council, in other words to the Bishops and prelates who enjoy, in the Church itself, jurisdiction. The Pope is, in fact, Bishop of the universal Church: it is therefore normal that exceptionally it is the prelates of the universal Church governing, like him and below him, a portion of the flock who elect him. We have also seen that by the very nature of things, and as a consequence of what has been said, are excluded from the number of electors per accidens of the Pope, titular Bishops, Bishops consecrated with the Roman mandate but deprived of jurisdiction in the Church. A fortiori are excluded from the number of electors - precisely because they are excluded from the General Council - Bishops consecrated without a Roman mandate under the exceptional conditions of the current (formal) vacancy of the Apostolic See. These Bishops were indeed consecrated validly and even, in our opinion - at least in certain cases - lawfully; but nevertheless they are - in the most absolute way - deprived of jurisdiction by the fact that the Bishop receives jurisdiction from God only through the intermediary of the Pope, an intermediary excluded in our case (14). Being deprived of jurisdiction, they do not belong to the hierarchy of the Church according to jurisdiction, for which they are not ex officio members of the Council and are therefore not entitled to validly elect the Pope, not even in cases extraordinary. This point of doctrine, already established in itself, is confirmed by the practical impossibility of electing a reliable and undoubted Pope by following this path. Who will be able to establish with certainty, among the many Bishops who have been and will still be consecrated in this way, those who have the right to participate in the election and those who do not? Who has the right to convene the Conclave and who does not? Who can be considered as legitimately consecrated and who not? In the absence of criteria of discernment (the Roman mandate, the residential seat) there are no limits per se to these consecrations neither on the part of who can authorize them (the Pope) nor with regard to the portion of territory to be governed (the diocese). The number of voters can therefore grow disproportionately without any guarantee of their catholicity, as has happened in practice.

    - - END QUOTE - -

    And in another place it was claimed,

    "The anonymous author accepts Pivarunas’ proof that the Holy See is vacant but shows that “universal Church” in Cajetan means an imperfect general council of bishops holding ordinary jurisdiction. Because strict (total) sedevacantism concedes no such bishops today, only the Cassiciacuм (material-formal) thesis can preserve apostolic succession and a future election."
    https://www.truecatholicfaith.com/articles/p/2asy6yaysnrh7dbgvxe9zp7iyq25wy


    And here is the formed response based on the exercise so far:

    Rebuttal: Bishops without Jurisdiction and Devolution in Extremis

    • Thesis and summary. 
      In a true catastrophic collapse of the Church’s ordinary juridical organs, the classical manualist tradition permits a remedial corporate response: validly consecrated bishops who lack ordinary jurisdiction are not ipso facto excluded from participating in an emergency assembly or election when the Church supplies the necessary juridical capacity under strict, public safeguards. This position preserves apostolic succession and visible continuity without adopting metaphysical alternatives (e.g., Cassiciacuм) as the only solution.
    • Sacramental character distinct from juridical power. 
      The ontological fact of episcopal consecration is distinct from the grant of jurisdiction. St. Thomas and the manualist tradition teach that orders confer an indelible character even when juridical faculties are absent; therefore a bishop’s sacramental capacity remains a real basis for corporate action when positive juridical structures fail.
    • The remedial principle in the scholastic tradition. 
      Cajetan’s and Suarez’s formulations of devolution express a remedial principle: when the competent judge is impeded, the Church acts by those who can (paraphrase of Cajetan) and, if ordinary electors fail, the power devolves to the universal Church or the Roman clergy (Suarez, paraphrase). Read together, these teachings authorize the Church to supply juridical competence corporately in extremis rather than to leave apostolic primacy without remedy.
    • Imperfect council as a form, not a fixed juridical body. 
      The imperfect council is a remedial form the Church may assume; it is not identical to a canonical ecuмenical council composed only of bishops who already possess ordinary jurisdiction. John of St. Thomas and other manualists envisage the Church acting through those who remain publicly able to act, which can include sacramentally valid bishops whose jurisdictional defects are temporarily supplied by the Church’s corporate will.
    • Why jurisdictional exclusion cannot be absolute. 
      To insist that no bishop without a Roman mandate may ever participate would create a logical dead end in scenarios where no ordinary electors survive or can be used. Classical theologians avoid that dead end by allowing natural‑law supply: positive law governs ordinarily, but natural law and the Church’s corporate life provide extraordinary remedies to preserve visible succession.
    • Distinguishing physical impossibility from moral defect. 
      The proper, objective trigger for devolution is physical impossibility—death, capture, permanent disappearance, or total communications blockade. Moral defects such as manifest heresy are a different category; they can produce practical impossibility only when they have objectively and universally destroyed the Church’s ability to identify and rely on electors.
    • When widespread manifest heresy becomes a practical trigger. 
      Manifest heresy qualifies as a devolution trigger only when all of the following obtain simultaneously: (a) Universality — the heresy is publicly notorious across the entire electoral subject; (b) Indeterminacy — no elector can be credibly certified as orthodox or trustworthy; (c) Incapacity to adjudicate — no independent tribunal can judge the fact without circularity; and (d) Irreversibility for the foreseeable future — communications or canonical processes cannot restore reliable identification within a reasonable canonical interval. Only such a compound factual state converts moral defect into practical impossibility.
    • Evidentiary standards and Bellarmine’s caution. 
      The manualist insistence on public notoriety is decisive here: Bellarmine’s technical teaching that a manifest heretic loses office ipso facto presupposes public notoriety, not private accusation. Therefore any claim that heresy has produced practical impossibility must be certified by public facts meeting a high evidentiary bar.
    • Who convokes and who may convene. 
      When ordinary convocation is impossible, surviving public ecclesial authorities—senior metropolitans, the most public bishops remaining, or a multi‑regional committee—may lawfully convene an imperfect council. This follows the scholastic pattern that the Church acts through those who remain able to act publicly for the good of the whole.
    • Eligibility to vote: sacramental validity plus public attestation. 
      Eligibility should be limited to bishops who are validly consecrated and whose consecration can be publicly attested. Residential jurisdiction is prudentially preferred but not an absolute ontological disqualification if corroboration exists. Public certification, docuмentary proof, and regional representation are the operative criteria.
    • Procedural safeguards to prevent proliferation and factionalism. 
      To answer the critic’s practical worries, impose strict safeguards: (a) multi‑regional corroboration (recommendation: attestations from at least three distinct ecclesial regions); (b) docuмentary proof of consecration and public acts; (c) public notarization and contemporaneous minutes; (d) oaths of fidelity by conveners and electors; and (e) a canonical waiting period (e.g., 30 days) for contestation. Suarez’s prudential cautions and Billot’s insistence on public proof justify these measures.
    • Avoiding circularity in adjudication. 
      Determinations that remove or exclude electors cannot be self‑authenticating. Claims of manifest heresy or jurisdictional illegitimacy must be adjudicated by a public corporate act under the evidentiary rules above, not by unilateral partisan declarations. This preserves the distinction between public facts and private accusations.
    • Why Cassiciacuм is not the only viable route. 
      The Cassiciacuм (material‑formal) thesis is a metaphysical solution that preserves a material pope deprived of formal authority; it is one possible response but not the only theologically defensible route. The classical devolution doctrine supplies a corporate juridical remedy that preserves succession without adopting Cassiciacuм’s metaphysical distinctions.
    • Practical model (concise procedural summary). 
      The operative sequence in extremis should be: (1) certify impossibility publicly with multi‑regional attestations; (2) convene representative bishops under oath; (3) admit only sacramentally valid bishops with public proof; (4) deliberate and, if necessary, elect following ancient Roman‑clergy principles adapted to the circuмstances; (5) record and publish minutes with civil or ecclesial notarization; (6) seek later canonical regularization if ordinary organs reappear.
    • Conclusion and theological balance. 
      The classical authorities—Cajetan, Suarez, John of St. Thomas, Bellarmine, Billot, and Journet—converge on a balanced solution: the Church’s visibility and apostolic succession are indefectible, but the historical mode of juridical visibility is not. In true extremis the Church may act corporately to supply what positive law cannot, provided that the remedial action is constrained by high evidentiary standards, public procedures, and prudential safeguards designed to preserve catholicity and prevent opportunism. This preserves both doctrinal integrity and practical continuity without making metaphysical constructs the only available remedy.












    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: Sede bishop begins to "work" towards electing a true Roman Pontiff...
    « Reply #34 on: January 16, 2026, 12:56:06 PM »
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  • Combine the Cassiciacuм metaphysical hypothesis with the Governing Principle procedural model so the Church preserves metaphysical continuity where present while restoring visible, juridical authority through a public imperfect council when ordinary organs are unusable. The synthesis treats Cassiciacuм as an optional theological backstop and the imperfect council as the primary, verifiable mechanism for restoring formal governance.
    Core principles
    • Sacramental vs juridical: episcopal consecration (ontological) is distinct from jurisdiction (juridical); remedial supply can address juridical defects without denying sacramental reality.
    • Objective triggers: devolution is triggered primarily by physical impossibility (death, capture, total communications blockade); manifest heresy becomes a trigger only when it produces universal, insurmountable doubt about elector identity.
    • Publicity and evidence: every extraordinary act must rest on public facts, multi‑regional corroboration, notarized records, and a waiting period to prevent partisan claims.
    Integration models
    • Backstop model: treat Cassiciacuм as a metaphysical continuity claim—if a credible materially‑present claimant exists, the council formalizes or recognizes his authority.
    • Recognition/formalization model: the council’s public act is decisive; Cassiciacuм language may be used interpretively but is not required as the legal basis.
    • Elective/repair model: if no credible material claimant exists, the council proceeds to elect under strict safeguards, creating both material and formal status by public canonical act.
    • Hybrid model: prefer a conditional approach—recognize and formalize a credible material claimant when demonstrable; otherwise elect under the Governing Principle.
    Procedural framework for an imperfect council
    • Convocation: convene by surviving public ecclesial authorities or a multi‑regional committee when ordinary convocation is impossible.
    • Eligibility: admit only validly consecrated bishops with public attestations; residential jurisdiction is preferred but not absolute if corroboration exists.
    • Evidence and timing: require attestations from at least three distinct regions, docuмentary proof, notarized minutes, oath‑taking, and a canonical waiting period (recommended 30 days).
    • Publication and provisionality: publish all acts and state explicitly that decisions are provisional and subject to later canonical regularization.
    Handling a materially‑present claimant impeded by heresy
    • First step — correction: prioritize public correction and rehabilitation; summon the person, offer a clear opportunity for recantation, and docuмent any reconciliation.
    • Second step — juridical declaration: if heresy is public, notorious, and obstinate, treat the person as having lost any legitimate claim ipso facto once the high evidentiary bar is met, and proceed to formalize another candidate or elect.
    • Third step — provisional action: if neither correction nor clean juridical declaration is possible, treat the claimant as functionally impeded and act provisionally to restore governance while preserving a path for later review.
    Recommendation and safeguards
    Adopt the hybrid conditional model: use Cassiciacuм only when a materially‑present claimant is publicly credible; otherwise rely on the imperfect council under the Governing Principle with strict evidentiary and procedural safeguards. This preserves doctrinal integrity, restores practical continuity, minimizes metaphysical controversy, and protects the Church from factionalism and opportunism.


    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: Sede bishop begins to "work" towards electing a true Roman Pontiff...
    « Reply #35 on: January 16, 2026, 01:58:14 PM »
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  • This should be interesting:



    To Stephen's credit, he has interviewed quite a range of persons in a short amount of time from all across the "trad-o-sphere" and he often asks thoughtful questions.

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Sede bishop begins to "work" towards electing a true Roman Pontiff...
    « Reply #36 on: January 16, 2026, 02:05:26 PM »
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  • This should be put here as well for those interested: https://ttu-files.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/The_Election_of_the_Pope.pdf

    Within he states:

    Bishops without jurisdiction cannot elect the Pope

    We have seen that in abnormal circuмstances the election of the Pope - according to the thought of the theologians who have dealt with the question - falls to the imperfect General Council, in other words to the Bishops and prelates who enjoy, in the Church itself, jurisdiction. The Pope is, in fact, Bishop of the universal Church: it is therefore normal that exceptionally it is the prelates of the universal Church governing, like him and below him, a portion of the flock who elect him. We have also seen that by the very nature of things, and as a consequence of what has been said, are excluded from the number of electors per accidens of the Pope, titular Bishops, Bishops consecrated with the Roman mandate but deprived of jurisdiction in the Church. A fortiori are excluded from the number of electors - precisely because they are excluded from the General Council - Bishops consecrated without a Roman mandate under the exceptional conditions of the current (formal) vacancy of the Apostolic See. These Bishops were indeed consecrated validly and even, in our opinion - at least in certain cases - lawfully; but nevertheless they are - in the most absolute way - deprived of jurisdiction by the fact that the Bishop receives jurisdiction from God only through the intermediary of the Pope, an intermediary excluded in our case (14). Being deprived of jurisdiction, they do not belong to the hierarchy of the Church according to jurisdiction, for which they are not ex officio members of the Council and are therefore not entitled to validly elect the Pope, not even in cases extraordinary. This point of doctrine, already established in itself, is confirmed by the practical impossibility of electing a reliable and undoubted Pope by following this path. Who will be able to establish with certainty, among the many Bishops who have been and will still be consecrated in this way, those who have the right to participate in the election and those who do not? Who has the right to convene the Conclave and who does not? Who can be considered as legitimately consecrated and who not? In the absence of criteria of discernment (the Roman mandate, the residential seat) there are no limits per se to these consecrations neither on the part of who can authorize them (the Pope) nor with regard to the portion of territory to be governed (the diocese). The number of voters can therefore grow disproportionately without any guarantee of their catholicity, as has happened in practice.

    - - END QUOTE - -

    And in another place it was claimed,

    "The anonymous author accepts Pivarunas’ proof that the Holy See is vacant but shows that “universal Church” in Cajetan means an imperfect general council of bishops holding ordinary jurisdiction. Because strict (total) sedevacantism concedes no such bishops today, only the Cassiciacuм (material-formal) thesis can preserve apostolic succession and a future election."
    https://www.truecatholicfaith.com/articles/p/2asy6yaysnrh7dbgvxe9zp7iyq25wy


    And here is the formed response based on the exercise so far:

    Rebuttal: Bishops without Jurisdiction and Devolution in Extremis

    • Thesis and summary. 
      In a true catastrophic collapse of the Church’s ordinary juridical organs, the classical manualist tradition permits a remedial corporate response: validly consecrated bishops who lack ordinary jurisdiction are not ipso facto excluded from participating in an emergency assembly or election when the Church supplies the necessary juridical capacity under strict, public safeguards. This position preserves apostolic succession and visible continuity without adopting metaphysical alternatives (e.g., Cassiciacuм) as the only solution.
    • Sacramental character distinct from juridical power. 
      The ontological fact of episcopal consecration is distinct from the grant of jurisdiction. St. Thomas and the manualist tradition teach that orders confer an indelible character even when juridical faculties are absent; therefore a bishop’s sacramental capacity remains a real basis for corporate action when positive juridical structures fail.
    • The remedial principle in the scholastic tradition. 
      Cajetan’s and Suarez’s formulations of devolution express a remedial principle: when the competent judge is impeded, the Church acts by those who can (paraphrase of Cajetan) and, if ordinary electors fail, the power devolves to the universal Church or the Roman clergy (Suarez, paraphrase). Read together, these teachings authorize the Church to supply juridical competence corporately in extremis rather than to leave apostolic primacy without remedy.
    • Imperfect council as a form, not a fixed juridical body. 
      The imperfect council is a remedial form the Church may assume; it is not identical to a canonical ecuмenical council composed only of bishops who already possess ordinary jurisdiction. John of St. Thomas and other manualists envisage the Church acting through those who remain publicly able to act, which can include sacramentally valid bishops whose jurisdictional defects are temporarily supplied by the Church’s corporate will.
    • Why jurisdictional exclusion cannot be absolute. 
      To insist that no bishop without a Roman mandate may ever participate would create a logical dead end in scenarios where no ordinary electors survive or can be used. Classical theologians avoid that dead end by allowing natural‑law supply: positive law governs ordinarily, but natural law and the Church’s corporate life provide extraordinary remedies to preserve visible succession.
    • Distinguishing physical impossibility from moral defect. 
      The proper, objective trigger for devolution is physical impossibility—death, capture, permanent disappearance, or total communications blockade. Moral defects such as manifest heresy are a different category; they can produce practical impossibility only when they have objectively and universally destroyed the Church’s ability to identify and rely on electors.
    • When widespread manifest heresy becomes a practical trigger. 
      Manifest heresy qualifies as a devolution trigger only when all of the following obtain simultaneously: (a) Universality — the heresy is publicly notorious across the entire electoral subject; (b) Indeterminacy — no elector can be credibly certified as orthodox or trustworthy; (c) Incapacity to adjudicate — no independent tribunal can judge the fact without circularity; and (d) Irreversibility for the foreseeable future — communications or canonical processes cannot restore reliable identification within a reasonable canonical interval. Only such a compound factual state converts moral defect into practical impossibility.
    • Evidentiary standards and Bellarmine’s caution. 
      The manualist insistence on public notoriety is decisive here: Bellarmine’s technical teaching that a manifest heretic loses office ipso facto presupposes public notoriety, not private accusation. Therefore any claim that heresy has produced practical impossibility must be certified by public facts meeting a high evidentiary bar.
    • Who convokes and who may convene. 
      When ordinary convocation is impossible, surviving public ecclesial authorities—senior metropolitans, the most public bishops remaining, or a multi‑regional committee—may lawfully convene an imperfect council. This follows the scholastic pattern that the Church acts through those who remain able to act publicly for the good of the whole.
    • Eligibility to vote: sacramental validity plus public attestation. 
      Eligibility should be limited to bishops who are validly consecrated and whose consecration can be publicly attested. Residential jurisdiction is prudentially preferred but not an absolute ontological disqualification if corroboration exists. Public certification, docuмentary proof, and regional representation are the operative criteria.
    • Procedural safeguards to prevent proliferation and factionalism. 
      To answer the critic’s practical worries, impose strict safeguards: (a) multi‑regional corroboration (recommendation: attestations from at least three distinct ecclesial regions); (b) docuмentary proof of consecration and public acts; (c) public notarization and contemporaneous minutes; (d) oaths of fidelity by conveners and electors; and (e) a canonical waiting period (e.g., 30 days) for contestation. Suarez’s prudential cautions and Billot’s insistence on public proof justify these measures.
    • Avoiding circularity in adjudication. 
      Determinations that remove or exclude electors cannot be self‑authenticating. Claims of manifest heresy or jurisdictional illegitimacy must be adjudicated by a public corporate act under the evidentiary rules above, not by unilateral partisan declarations. This preserves the distinction between public facts and private accusations.
    • Why Cassiciacuм is not the only viable route. 
      The Cassiciacuм (material‑formal) thesis is a metaphysical solution that preserves a material pope deprived of formal authority; it is one possible response but not the only theologically defensible route. The classical devolution doctrine supplies a corporate juridical remedy that preserves succession without adopting Cassiciacuм’s metaphysical distinctions.
    • Practical model (concise procedural summary). 
      The operative sequence in extremis should be: (1) certify impossibility publicly with multi‑regional attestations; (2) convene representative bishops under oath; (3) admit only sacramentally valid bishops with public proof; (4) deliberate and, if necessary, elect following ancient Roman‑clergy principles adapted to the circuмstances; (5) record and publish minutes with civil or ecclesial notarization; (6) seek later canonical regularization if ordinary organs reappear.
    • Conclusion and theological balance. 
      The classical authorities—Cajetan, Suarez, John of St. Thomas, Bellarmine, Billot, and Journet—converge on a balanced solution: the Church’s visibility and apostolic succession are indefectible, but the historical mode of juridical visibility is not. In true extremis the Church may act corporately to supply what positive law cannot, provided that the remedial action is constrained by high evidentiary standards, public procedures, and prudential safeguards designed to preserve catholicity and prevent opportunism. This preserves both doctrinal integrity and practical continuity without making metaphysical constructs the only available remedy.

    Fr. Ricossa's argument is logically unsound.

    His major premise is empirically falsified by the very historical precedent, the Council of Constance, that Fr. Ricossa accepts to establish the possibility of extraordinary papal election.

    At Constance bishops participated who "jurisdiction" derived from each of the three papal claimants. But at most one of these claimants was the legitimate Pope. The bishops whose jurisdiction derived from the other two held no legitimate jurisdiction by Fr. Ricossa's own criterion. Yet they participated. And the result (Martin V) is universally recognized as valid.

    Therefore, the major premise is false. Legitimate jurisdiction derived from a legitimate Pope is not the criterion for participation in an extraordinary Council convened to elect a Pope.

    A logically valid argument with a false premise is unsound. Fr. Ricossa's argument is logically valid (the conclusion follows from the premises), but it is unsound because the major premise is contradicted by the historical facts of Constance—the very precedent he relies upon.

    Fr. Ricossa cannot simultaneously: invoke Constance as the precedent for extraordinary papal election AND

    • maintain that only bishops with legitimate jurisdiction can participate


    The facts of Constance disprove the jurisdictional criterion. If Constance is the model, then the criterion must be something other than jurisdiction—most plausibly, valid episcopal consecration.


    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: Sede bishop begins to "work" towards electing a true Roman Pontiff...
    « Reply #37 on: January 16, 2026, 02:22:33 PM »
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  • Fr. Ricossa's argument is logically unsound.

    The facts of Constance disprove the jurisdictional criterion. If Constance is the model, then the criterion must be something other than jurisdiction—most plausibly, valid episcopal consecration.
    So what about a synthesis of the two positions?

    Also,

    What do you think about +Roy saying (paraphrase), "The Church has never waited around for direct Divine intervention to secure a pope."?


    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: Sede bishop begins to "work" towards electing a true Roman Pontiff...
    « Reply #38 on: January 16, 2026, 08:07:36 PM »
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  • +Sanborn states, "Now there is talk about some bishops getting together and electing a pope which is most absurd and ridiculous."

    But the reason he gives for this statement is that the man elected would be living, "many miles for Rome" and the "Pope has to be the bishop of Rome."

    I do not think he gave a good answer.

    Even Van Noort says that (paraphrase), "if Rome was destroyed, the Pope would still be the Bishop of Rome, even if he decided to setup the Holy See in Texas or New York, etc."

    @57:00



    And at the same time that +Sanborn was live saying that, Stephen Kokx was airing the interview with +Roy (where he gives more of his opinion on this).

    Relevant part starts @31:00




    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Sede bishop begins to "work" towards electing a true Roman Pontiff...
    « Reply #39 on: January 16, 2026, 08:24:10 PM »
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  • So what about a synthesis of the two positions?

    Also,

    What do you think about +Roy saying (paraphrase), "The Church has never waited around for direct Divine intervention to secure a pope."?


    If I understand what you mean by the "synthesis," the answer is to look at the arguments used by the Totalist Sedes to undermine the Thesis Sedes. And then look at the reply of the Thesis Sedes to the Totalist Sedes.

    A synthesis is not actually possible. One side ignores the valid evidence used by the other side against its position. The evidence each side uses against the other is incontrovertible. Those evidentiary claims are grounded in the first principles of Catholic jurisprudence and the canon law derived from those first principles. By denying those first principles, one negates the foundations of the law itself. Eventually they resort to "epikeia" or "salus animarum."

    The totalist proposes a "council" of trad bishops (conclavism) as the solution. Insanity. The Thesis people know that is not consistent with Catholic teaching and provide evidence. The totalist ignores that evidence and says the Thesis ignore the fact that a Pope without formal jurisdiction cannot appoint Cardinals (through material/formal principle misapplication in the juridical context). The Thesis Sede ignores that evidence an adds another layer of sophistry to work around it.

    Both are undoubtedly correct in their criticism of the other. To believe these criticisms can just be hand-waved (by either side) is irrational. 

    The only solution for Sedes would be to look at something like what Billot allows. But that requires a true Pope to be involved in either making the papal election law that the Cardinals follow OR participating in some way with the "ecuмenical council." Sedes have excluded the possibility of both by claiming all Popes since 1958/1963 are heretics and do not have jurisdiction over the Church. 

    Again, they would be better off just saying, "Hey we don't understand how all of this is going to work out. We just know we can't follow teachings that seem to us to be heretical. We will pray for enlightenment, but until that happens, we stick to the traditional teachings and practices." That would be the humble position to take.

    The problem with these faithful traditional Catholics is not their insight that something is wrong in the NuChurch and their solution to the immediate problem of keeping the faith in a time of Crisis. The real problem is that they fancy themselves theologians and develop an ideology called "Sedevacantism," but contradict their own basic propositions on how their "theological" opinions can solve the Crisis.


    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: Sede bishop begins to "work" towards electing a true Roman Pontiff...
    « Reply #40 on: January 16, 2026, 10:53:21 PM »
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  • Does anyone really think all the traditional Catholic groups could ever agree on or submit to a “pope” chosen by……who?  
    Remember how well the “Pope Michael” thing worked out!


    Offline Mr G

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    Re: Sede bishop begins to "work" towards electing a true Roman Pontiff...
    « Reply #41 on: January 17, 2026, 11:33:07 AM »
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  • Does anyone really think all the traditional Catholic groups could ever agree on or submit to a “pope” chosen by……who? 
    Remember how well the “Pope Michael” thing worked out!
    They talk about that in the interview.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sede bishop begins to "work" towards electing a true Roman Pontiff...
    « Reply #42 on: January 17, 2026, 02:11:39 PM »
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  • They talk about that in the interview.

    It's not even worth talking about.  That was a rhetorical question.

    Not only will Ecclesia Dei groups not accept it, nor SSPX, nor other R&R, nor sedeprivationists (since their position precludes this), but even among the Totalists you'd get maybe 10% who'd not have serious reservationts about someone elected this way.

    It's a non-starter, not until Prevost were to become so obviously apostate that even SSPX and FSSP couldn't deny it anymore.

    I'm a Totalist(*) and wouldn't be able to accept a guy who had been elected even by a couple dozen SV bishops.

    * when I say I'm a Totalist, I actually believe Sedeprivationism works better in principle, just that the present papal claimants are not materially Popes either, due to my belief that Siri had been elected and materially held the papacy.  Since he's died (and I don't believe the nonsense about his having appointed secret Cardinals), the See is now vacant formaliter and materialiter, and that's because he remained alive through 1989, rendering the elections of Roncalli, Montini, Luciani, and Wojtyla invalid ... and by the time of Ratzinger, 2005, there would have been no more legitimate Cardinals left anyway from the Pope Pius XII era.

    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: Sede bishop begins to "work" towards electing a true Roman Pontiff...
    « Reply #43 on: January 17, 2026, 02:42:12 PM »
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  • Listen to +Bp. Sanborn’s take on electing a trad Pope. Just because a person would like this bishop or that to be Pope, there’s no way of electing a new Pope for Trads. First off, nobody will agree on whomever is chosen. A certain group of trads will love him, another group will refuse him, not recognizing him. You’ll end up with more division among trads than before! 
    All in all, it’s not a good idea. What’ll happen will constitute a true schism. 
    What’s more important is continuing to practice the Catholic Faith as handed down, pre-V2. If separate groups of trads were to go ahead and choose their own Pope, guess what you have? Protestantism! 

    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: Sede bishop begins to "work" towards electing a true Roman Pontiff...
    « Reply #44 on: January 17, 2026, 03:31:45 PM »
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  • There are several objections raised whenever the idea of an imperfect council is discussed, especially in the context of the current crisis. Most of these objections come from real strands of pre‑Vatican II theology, so they deserve serious answers. But none of them actually overturn the governing principle found in Cajetan, Suárez, John of St. Thomas, and the broader manualist tradition: the Church cannot be left without the ability to designate her head, even when positive law collapses.

    Below is a synthesis of the main objections and how they fit within acceptable Catholic teaching.

    1. “Only bishops with jurisdiction can form an imperfect council.”
    This objection assumes that the imperfect council is defined by jurisdiction.
    But the classical theologians define it by function: the remaining hierarchy acting for the universal Church when the constituted organ cannot act.
    In normal times, bishops with jurisdiction are the public hierarchy.
    In extremis, when jurisdictional structures have collapsed, the public hierarchy is identified instead by: episcopal character, public consecration, and public ecclesial identity. These remain even when jurisdiction is impeded.
    So the imperfect council is not being redefined — its identifying marks simply shift from juridical to sacramental when positive law becomes inoperable. This is exactly how the manuals distinguish order from jurisdiction.

    2. “There’s no explicit legislation allowing bishops without jurisdiction to elect.”
    That’s precisely the point.
    The Church has always taught that positive law ceases to bind when its fulfillment becomes impossible.
    The manuals explicitly say the Church cannot legislate for every conceivable collapse of her juridical organs.
    Cajetan and Suárez both state that in such cases the Church acts: not by positive law, but by natural law, which preserves her ability to designate a head.
    So the lack of explicit legislation is not a weakness — it is the very condition that activates the natural‑law remedy.

    3. “Billot and others restrict the imperfect council to bishops with jurisdiction.”
    True — but Billot’s restriction presupposes a Church where jurisdictional structures still exist and can be identified.
    His argument assumes: diocesan governance intact, papal mandate intact, identifiable bishops with ordinary jurisdiction. The governing principle applies only when those assumptions fail.
    And Billot’s deeper principles still hold: the Church cannot lose the power to designate her head, and the Church cannot fall into juridical paralysis.
    So the governing principle doesn’t contradict Billot — it applies his principles to a scenario he never envisioned, where sacramental identity becomes the only remaining public marker of the hierarchy.

    4. “The manuals don’t specify the procedural safeguards you propose.”
    Correct — because procedural details belong to prudence, not divine law.
    The manuals require: publicity, verifiability, moral certainty, avoidance of factionalism.
    They do not prescribe how to achieve these in unprecedented circuмstances.
    Safeguards like multi‑regional corroboration, docuмentary proof, notarized minutes, oaths, and waiting periods are simply prudent applications of manualist principles. They operationalize what the manuals require without adding new theology.

    5. “No one will accept the electors or the elected candidate — this will cause more schism.”
    This objection misunderstands how ecclesial acts work.
    The manuals do not require universal prior agreement for validity.
    Even in normal conclaves, unanimity is not required.
    What matters is: a public, corporate, verifiable act performed by the competent subject.
    Unity flows from the Church’s public acts — not the other way around. If fear of dissent could nullify the Church’s ability to act, then the Church’s indefectibility would be held hostage to private judgment. The imperfect council provides the only objective point of reference to which consciences can later adhere. It is the remedy against schism, not the cause of it.

    Conclusion
    None of these objections overturn the governing principle found in the classical theologians.
    They simply require us to apply that principle carefully, prudently, and publicly.
    The Church’s ability to act in extremis does not depend on: universal agreement, intact jurisdictional structures, or explicit legislation for unprecedented situations.
    It depends on the Church’s indefectibility, the distinction between order and jurisdiction, and the natural‑law principle that the Church must retain the ability to designate Her head.

    One of the most EXTREME temporal examples you could use is to ask yourself, "what would have to happen for the Church to elect a new pope - if all the lesser Roman clergy,  all the ordinary bishops of the world holding jurisdictional Sees,  the whole college of cardinals, and the pope where simultaneously vaporized at the same instant." How would the Church still retain the ability to designate Her head - what would that look like?