Author Topic: Schism (Read 3428 times)

Penitent · « **on:** August 19, 2011, 01:46:58 AM »

What exactly is schism in traddie land?

Francis Schuckardt was ordained by an Old Catholic bishop. If Schuckardt's intent was merely to be ordained outside of the conciliar structures but he still wished to remain a Roman Catholic, was it an act of schism?

If a traditional Roman Catholic priest decides that all other traditional Catholic organizations are non-Catholic, that he is the only real Catholic clergyman left, that he alone (despite not even being a bishop) can perform Confirmations at his chapel, is he schismatic?

Thanks.

LordPhan · « **Reply #1 on:** August 19, 2011, 01:51:29 AM »

Quote from: Penitent

What exactly is schism in traddie land?

Francis Schuckardt was ordained by an Old Catholic bishop. If Schuckardt's intent was merely to be ordained outside of the conciliar structures but he still wished to remain a Roman Catholic, was it an act of schism?

If a traditional Roman Catholic priest decides that all other traditional Catholic organizations are non-Catholic, that he is the only real Catholic clergyman left, that he alone (despite not even being a bishop) can perform Confirmations at his chapel, is he schismatic?

Thanks.

Firstly I don't know who that is. The 'Old Catholics' are Formal Heretics. How is it better to be ordained by someone who formally denies dogma's of the church? They also believe in gαy and women Priests. They are WORSE then the concillarists.

If a Priest believes he is the only real clergy left he denies apostolic succesion.

Raoul76 · « **Reply #2 on:** August 19, 2011, 02:05:51 AM »

I began my catechumenate with the Bishop Vezelis group, who make their flock sign a paper saying that they believe that Bp. V and his underling Bishop Giles are the only true bishops. This, at least, is the rumor, and they didn't deny it when asked.

That was when I took a walk. Now, is everyone who signs this paper a schismatic? It kind of looks that way, doesn't it? Yet it's not so clear cut as with the Orthodox, for instance.

In the case of Bp. Schuckardt, I will be more clear -- no, he was not schismatic. That was the best he could do in the circuмstances, or so he felt, one assumes. The Old Catholics had valid Holy Orders despite utilizing them illicitly. I don't see how this could be construed as a schismatic act, if he thought it was what he had to do to preserve the Church. Then again, at that time, many of the VII bishops were still real bishops... But they were trapped in the belly of the beast.

I don't see who can judge Bp. Schuckardt for what he did there. It would be like attacking Abp. Thuc for his various imperfections, which is unconscionable when you consider how few people were sedes at that time and how alone he really was. What Bp. Schuckardt did later is something else and can't be defended, of course. Bp. Schukardt, in a way, was the first sede -- so it was important for the devil to get to him, I have no doubt, to discredit him and thus the movement. Well, it worked.

Penitent · « **Reply #3 on:** August 19, 2011, 11:24:09 AM »

Quote from: Raoul76

I don't see who can judge Bp. Schuckardt for what he did there.

Well, I guess if you want to set yourself up as the only true Catholic clergyman, you have to find some way to discredit all the others. The argument against the CMRI goes like this: the CMRI are not Catholic because the organization had its origins in a schismatic sect. It doesn't matter that the CMRI actually started as a Catholic organization and had the approval of the local bishop. What matters is that Schuckardt was ordained by a schismatic bishop. It also doesn't matter that the CMRI fixed the Schuckardt problems. There's just no fixing it. It can't be done. Validly ordained CMRI priests who profess the Catholic Faith are nevertheless not Catholic because they belong to a non-Catholic organization. It's better not to go to Mass at all than to assist at a CMRI Mass.

That's not at all convincing to me. I just wanted some clarification. Thanks Raoul and LP for your replies.

Raoul76 · « **Reply #4 on:** August 19, 2011, 01:45:08 PM »

I think it has been proven at this point that certain clergymen, whether it is conscious or subconscious, are entertaining delusions of grandeur. And not just clergymen -- I may have had one or two of these delusions in my time myself

There seems to be a race on to be the one who "saves the Church." To do this, they have to set themselves up as more unique in their field than they really are. It is depressing to see, but psychologically understandable. Of course, priests should have better perception of psychology and root out these impulses in themselves. When taken to the point of absurdity, this kind of dreaming results in your Pope Michaels of the world.

It may not seem like it, since these men often have small flocks. But there is some serious power-tripping going on out there. Or to be more accurate, men tripping on what they perceive in their minds to be power. It doesn't matter if your flock is small, if they are the remnant, and if you are keeping the torch alive singlehandedly, you see...

PartyIsOver221 · « **Reply #5 on:** August 19, 2011, 03:09:58 PM »

CMRI are going to receive a massive reward in heaven for their dedication.. if only I had the smidgen of courage to fight publicly that any one of their priests/nuns/laity possess, I would just praise God forever and ever. I am so weak.

MyrnaM · « **Reply #6 on:** August 19, 2011, 04:12:00 PM »

So, what you are saying is once a schismatic, always a schismatic, is that what the Church teaches? I don't think so!

Bp. Schuckardt was ordained by a former Old Catholic, who returned to the Roman Catholic Faith at the time of his ordination.

Emerentiana · « **Reply #7 on:** August 19, 2011, 07:13:42 PM »

Quote from: Penitent

Quote from: Raoul76

I don't see who can judge Bp. Schuckardt for what he did there.

Well, I guess if you want to set yourself up as the only true Catholic clergyman, you have to find some way to discredit all the others. The argument against the CMRI goes like this: the CMRI are not Catholic because the organization had its origins in a schismatic sect. It doesn't matter that the CMRI actually started as a Catholic organization and had the approval of the local bishop. What matters is that Schuckardt was ordained by a schismatic bishop. It also doesn't matter that the CMRI fixed the Schuckardt problems. There's just no fixing it. It can't be done. Validly ordained CMRI priests who profess the Catholic Faith are nevertheless not Catholic because they belong to a non-Catholic organization. It's better not to go to Mass at all than to assist at a CMRI Mass.

That's not at all convincing to me. I just wanted some clarification. Thanks Raoul and LP for your replies.

Penitent,
You dont know what you are talking about.
The CMRI priests all had conditional ordination after Schukardt left. They are valid priests.
Before you come on and attack the CMRI, do your homework!

I think you are here to make trouble. If I remember, you might ba a "home aloner". If Im not mistaken, Ive seen your posts nefore. :argue:

Gregory I · « **Reply #8 on:** August 19, 2011, 07:20:52 PM »

I think penitent was saying how lame the argument AGAINST CMRI was...

Penitent · « **Reply #9 on:** August 19, 2011, 08:08:03 PM »

Quote from: Raoul76

There seems to be a race on to be the one who "saves the Church." To do this, they have to set themselves up as more unique in their field than they really are.

What they should do is set themselves up as being the most Christ-like. They are more concerned with being "right" (and the ONLY one who is "right") that they forget about humility and charity, etc. Very sad.

Penitent · « **Reply #10 on:** August 19, 2011, 08:10:21 PM »

Quote from: Emerentiana

I think you are here to make trouble. If I remember, you might ba a "home aloner". If Im not mistaken, Ive seen your posts nefore. :argue:

I think you have me confused with someone else. I am not a home aloner.

Emerentiana · « **Reply #11 on:** August 20, 2011, 12:02:14 AM »

Quote from: Penitent

Quote from: Raoul76

There seems to be a race on to be the one who "saves the Church." To do this, they have to set themselves up as more unique in their field than they really are.

What they should do is set themselves up as being the most Christ-like. They are more concerned with being "right" (and the ONLY one who is "right") that they forget about humility and charity, etc. Very sad.

As I told you, Penitent........you dont know what you are talking about. Do you know the CMRI priests? Ive known the older ones since they were young men. You will Never find more charitable holy priests than they are. Devoted to their flocks and extremely hard working!

Penitent · « **Reply #12 on:** August 20, 2011, 12:17:28 AM »

Quote from: Emerentiana

Quote from: Penitent
Quote from: Raoul76

There seems to be a race on to be the one who "saves the Church." To do this, they have to set themselves up as more unique in their field than they really are.

What they should do is set themselves up as being the most Christ-like. They are more concerned with being "right" (and the ONLY one who is "right") that they forget about humility and charity, etc. Very sad.

As I told you, Penitent........you dont know what you are talking about. Do you know the CMRI priests? Ive known the older ones since they were young men. You will Never find more charitable holy priests than they are. Devoted to their flocks and extremely hard working!

I'm sorry. I must not be making myself clear. I was talking about those who criticize the CMRI.

Hobbledehoy · « **Reply #13 on:** August 20, 2011, 01:19:12 AM »

Emerentiana,

Penitent did not attack the CMRI. Here is an analysis of the post to which you first responded

Quote from: Penitent

Well, I guess if you want to set yourself up as the only true Catholic clergyman, you have to find some way to discredit all the others.

This was a response to Raoul's comment that the CMRI's founder ought not to be criticized, and it elucidates the fact that the criticisms of the CMRI by the other sedevacantist groups are partisan and Pharisaical attempts to "monopolize" the faithful. This is the sort of schismatical attitude upon which Penitent inquired in the original post.

Quote from: Penitent

The argument against the CMRI goes like this: the CMRI are not Catholic because the organization had its origins in a schismatic sect. It doesn't matter that the CMRI actually started as a Catholic organization and had the approval of the local bishop. What matters is that Schuckardt was ordained by a schismatic bishop. It also doesn't matter that the CMRI fixed the Schuckardt problems. There's just no fixing it. It can't be done. Validly ordained CMRI priests who profess the Catholic Faith are nevertheless not Catholic because they belong to a non-Catholic organization. It's better not to go to Mass at all than to assist at a CMRI Mass.

The emphasis was added in order to illustrate the fact that Penitent was citing the arguments of others, to whom there is a reference in the first part of the reply to Raoul.

That this is not Penitent's own argument is shown by the following:

Quote from: Penitent

That's not at all convincing to me. I just wanted some clarification. Thanks Raoul and LP for your replies.

Emphases are mine.

Just wanted to clear things up and help avoid further misunderstandings.

Gregory I · « **Reply #14 on:** August 20, 2011, 01:42:37 AM »

THat is what I thought too. No, you're right Penitent, Some trad groups are either power hungry, are racing to be the remnant.

I am NOT calumniating the SSPV. Not at all whe I say this: THe CMRI Hierarchy, and SGG hierarchy ADMIT to not having the authority to bind a parishoner to attend their masses. Significantly, a priest from SSPV may refuse communion to someone who goes to SGG or CMRI, but the opposite is not true. SGG will commune SSPV frequenters and CMRI. As will the CMRI.

I think it is important to note who the "hawks" are. SGG and CMRI also do not raise strong objection to a parishoner going to SSPX chapels. I think the SSPV still maintains a strong "Lefebvreist" spirit. They seem more like SSPX than SGG or CMRI anyway. At least to me.

How much do you all want to bet, that if we took all the CMRI, SSPV, SGG, and SOME of the SSPX and counted out (somehow) all the faithful adherents, it would not be in excess of 144,000> :rolleyes:

But seriously...