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Author Topic: Schiavo Revisited  (Read 7337 times)

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Offline Pyrrhos

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Schiavo Revisited
« Reply #60 on: July 17, 2011, 11:56:40 AM »
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  • Who is so critical of the critics of the evil triumvirate of Dolan, Cekada and Sanborn, really cannot have a clue about the problems we are facing.
    I don´t know the SSPV too well, but it seems to me even those sectarians are not as bad as their former colleagues.

    We are facing grave immorality, child abuse, schism, breaking the seal of the confessional, deceit, slander, theft, extortion, spiritual murder of mostly children and young men and much, much more.  
    If you are a theologian, you truly pray, and if you truly pray, you are a theologian. - Evagrius Ponticus


    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Schiavo Revisited
    « Reply #61 on: July 17, 2011, 11:57:14 AM »
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  • Quote from: SJB
    And myself being called a liar goes unnoticed and no apology forthcoming?


    So it would seem...
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."


    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Schiavo Revisited
    « Reply #62 on: July 17, 2011, 11:59:03 AM »
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  • Quote from: MyrnaM
    I hope you are not saying I called you a liar since I
    I said I didn't read the thread.


    FWIW, Elizabeth did and has not addressed it.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline Hobbledehoy

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    Schiavo Revisited
    « Reply #63 on: July 17, 2011, 03:23:52 PM »
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  • Perhaps I may make a complete idiot of myself for entering into this exchange, but after much reflection I feel myself compelled to make the following general remarks, which are not aimed at anyone in particular, although they chiefly concern the American sedevacantist world (since it is the only one I've ever known so far):

    1. I believe there has to be a balance between zeal for defending the integrity and purity of the practice and profession of the faith, which in these sad days sometimes entails an ardent battle against errant clerics and layfolk (which is true for other traditionalist circles and the N.O. diocesan predicament), and a spirit of prayerful recollection that does not allow such zeal to become a hindrance to the cultivation of the interior life.

    2. The individual Catholic has a right and duty to correct in all humility, verity and charity those clerics who presume to have a sort of authority wherewith to bind their consciences when these same clerics have proven themselves unworthy and incompetent to exercise such authority by manifest abuse, especially because said authority does not exist as every "independent" cleric is bereft of jurisdiction in the external forum. These individual Catholics, moreover, are obliged by fraternal charity to warn their fellow brethren of clerical abuses that may scandalize or endanger their souls and those souls under their care (as in the case of parents, educators, &c.).

    3. The above cannot be effectively or efficiently done without the prior cultivation of those acquired moral virtues that will ensure clarity of mind in the midst of the most obfuscating of questions, and stability of heart before the most unnerving of trials. In addition to the prayer and good works that the cultivation of such virtues requires, there needs to be a certain amount of discretion in expressing oneself when it comes to these grave matters.

    Now, having made those general remarks, I shall now address a particular point that was made by Mike:

    Quote from: Raoul76
    I took a look at the VoV site, it is indeed disgusting.  There is no cause whatsoever to talk about priests and bishops that way, I don't care what their problems are.  When St. Francis met a priest who was openly living with a concubine, did St. Francis go and write a website about him mocking him?  No, he bent down and wept and begged the priest not to tarnish himself, as he was consecrated to God.  I understand being outraged by a priest's actions, but this feels like calculated destruction of someone's reputation.


    Sometimes the tone of the criticism in question does unnerve me, and it is quite saddening, but it is saddening precisely because it is an understandable reaction to abuses that are utter baneful and should be denounced. These abuses actually took place. All pious sentimentality in the world will not change that FACT.

    Yes, the example of St. Francis is to be imitated, because Holy Orders confers upon a man a dignity that is wholly hallowed and ontologically superior to even the dignity of the Angelic choirs. However, St. Francis never faced the possibility of reverencing Episcopi vagantes or clerics who attained to Sacred Orders without a Papal mandate. As I have said before, it is precisely because the present day clerics do not have a Canonical mission nor jurisdiction in the external forum that they cannot publicly bind individual consciences or ascribe to themselves the dignities and prerogatives of the Bishops and Priests that ruled over the faithful in ages past by authority of the Supreme Pontiff.

    These clerics must prove themselves worthy of the pastoral care of the faithful before the souls for whom the intend to care with whatever supplied jurisdiction the Church can give, and this onus is all the more grave precisely because of the sanctity of Holy Orders. As they say in the courts, the burden of proof falls upon them. If they prove themselves unworthy or incompetent by manifest abuse, injustice, immorality, imbecility, &c., then they lose the right to be reverenced until they do penance and restitution for their misdeeds, just as a Church that has been violated or polluted cannot be licitly used for Holy Mass and other sacred rites until it is reconciled according to the rites of the Roman Pontifical.

    This is what the clerics who have deserved such violent censure have done, and they appear to be pertinacious in their error, since they have yet to apologize to the injured parties. Good will must be presumed in the spirit of charity, but there is just too much evidence to maintain this stance when it comes to the clerics whom the VoV site and Pristina Liturgica criticize.

    It would be nice if their tone was a bit tempered, but I cannot blame them for that, because they have witnessed (or have been subject to) a systematic victimization that is simply inexcusable.

    They doing a very important service for the sedevacantist faithful for the reasons I have already mentioned. The authors of those sites are not clerics who pretend to bind consciences, so they don't have the burden of proof in that regard. When it comes to their allegations about particular instances, they have provided ample proof. They just reporters of unhappy happenings.

    One may argue, "Well, what good can this do for their spiritual life? Are they personally more holy because of their internet reporting?" Well, such an argument is a mendicant for questions, since it is impoverished of answers. First of all, no one created or creatable intellect has the cardiognosis whereby to judge the state of souls, or to gauge the spiritual progress of the individual Christian; we cannot be judges of consciences. Secondly, the faithful need to be aware of these problems in order to arrive at a prudent and well-informed choice when it comes to the practical aspect of certain key praxes immediately pertaining to the faith: what Chapel to attend, to which Seminary to send young men, to which collection basket to give what amount of money, &c. Without the ability to make such practical judgements, one cannot have the stability necessary in order to cultivate the interior life, especially when there is danger of scandal that will either tempt one to despair and abandon the faith, or lull one into a Quietist and apathetic torpor that will merely perpetuate the sort of mediocrity that had allowed these abuses to occur in the first place.

    When a man decides freely to attain to Sacred Orders in these confusing times for the greater glory of God and the salvation of souls, and his actions and attitude betray a contrary motive and result in outright abuse, then the faithful must make a practical judgment in order to avoid scandalizing themselves and others.

    Do the VoV and Pristina Liturgica sites do a good service, in light of the things mentioned above? Yes, in my opinion.

    Are they above censure? No: no one is above censure. They could temper their tone, but they were the ones who witnessed this, and it is understandable that they express themselves the way they do.

    All I can do is pray for them, as well as for the clerics who have caused all this mess, and especially for those clerics who have suffered because of it.

    Again, these are my personal opinions. I may be wrong, so don't cite me as authority (please!).
    Please ignore all that I have written regarding sedevacantism.

    Offline SJB

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    Schiavo Revisited
    « Reply #64 on: July 17, 2011, 03:47:19 PM »
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  • Quote from: MyrnaM
    Quote from: SJB
    Quote from: MyrnaM
    Thank you Elizabeth and Raoul for pointing out what I tried to say on that thread, that was oh so "popular", now deleted by the grace of God.  

    I haven't read through this thread, just the first few posts and the last few, but I got the drift.  



    And myself being called a liar goes unnoticed and no apology forthcoming? No call for an apology by the righteous Myrna?


    I hope you are not saying I called you a liar since I
    I said I didn't read the thread.

    Righteous in right with God, I hope!  

    And thanks GV, all my Sundays are glorious.


    Myrna, I said "call for an apology." Maybe you should read the thread before you comment.
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil


    Offline MyrnaM

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    Schiavo Revisited
    « Reply #65 on: July 17, 2011, 03:55:38 PM »
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  • SJB, your a big boy, defend yourself!

    Please pray for my soul.
    R.I.P. 8/17/22

    My new blog @ https://myforever.blog/blog/

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Schiavo Revisited
    « Reply #66 on: July 17, 2011, 04:00:37 PM »
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  • Quote from: MyrnaM
    SJB, your a big boy, defend yourself!


    FWIW, DD and AC are, to all appearances, big boys, too :wink:
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline MyrnaM

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    Schiavo Revisited
    « Reply #67 on: July 17, 2011, 04:08:37 PM »
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  • I agree, GV if you can't take the heat of the Internet, we better all get out of the kitchen.  We are all adults here, if a certain person called a certain person a liar then that person should be addressed directly, no one came to my rescue when I was walked on.  Nor did I wait or expect it either.  

    I am out of this thread, as you can see it just breeds evil among us friends.  
    Please pray for my soul.
    R.I.P. 8/17/22

    My new blog @ https://myforever.blog/blog/


    Offline SJB

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    Schiavo Revisited
    « Reply #68 on: July 17, 2011, 04:32:34 PM »
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  • Quote from: MyrnaM
    SJB, your a big boy, defend yourself!



    I did defend myself and Elizabeth was silent. You inserted yourself into the discussion, Myrna. Now you need to be a big girl yourself.
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline Lighthouse

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    Schiavo Revisited
    « Reply #69 on: July 17, 2011, 04:54:47 PM »
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  • At 5'8" I'm only a medium-sized boy, but here goes:

    I, for one, would sign-on to the Hobbledee Manifesto. It seems about right.

    (I even learned a new word: cardiognosis.  Is one possessing such gifts a cardiognostic?

     :wink:

    Offline SJB

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    Schiavo Revisited
    « Reply #70 on: July 17, 2011, 07:18:34 PM »
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  • Quote from: MyrnaM
    I agree, GV if you can't take the heat of the Internet, we better all get out of the kitchen.  We are all adults here, if a certain person called a certain person a liar then that person should be addressed directly, no one came to my rescue when I was walked on.  Nor did I wait or expect it either.  

    I am out of this thread, as you can see it just breeds evil among us friends.  


    What is this "certain person" stuff? I know you can read, Myrna.
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil


    Offline Sigismund

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    Schiavo Revisited
    « Reply #71 on: July 17, 2011, 09:25:03 PM »
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  • Quote from: Elizabeth
    Quote from: SJB
    Quote from: Elizabeth
    Quote from: SJB
    Link to the article, Schiavo Revisited:

    http://vovwatch.com/people/cekada/schiavorevisited.htm

    I discovered this letter written by Fr. Cekada and posted on FreeRepublic back in 2005, and it is shockingly arrogant and cold.


    Yet you worked for Fr. Cekada at St. Clare's for another 4 years or more, until he sold the chapel.  

    Fr. Ramolla has the problems sorted out, Bernie Hall got to finally become a

    priest, Immaculate Conception got a boost from the scandals.

    And seriously, the Vutures of Vaudeville website reads like a bunch of witches

    with OCD, poring over minutiae, taking scandal.  It imitates those whom it hates.


    Let it go for the love of God and your immortal souls.


    You have the facts wrong. I actually spend very little time "poring over minutia" and "taking scandal." I'm not sure what it is that you want me to "let go."

    You have my number. Call me if you're truly concerned.


    It is not clear if VoV Watch is your website from your post here, or if not, why you read such trash.  

    Clearly, nobody wishes to sign his name to the VoV site, or say where he attends Mass, or what his exact history with the clergy, Mass centers or seminarians is.  No Catholic priest endorses this website, and only gαy ones would enjoy it.

    It's trashy and it will not save anyone's soul, or alert anyone to any danger.  It will likely engender compassion.  Many will become more firmly convinced of the holiness due to the attacking website, VoV Watch.

    I saw that list of 6 seminarians called "The Viperene Brood".  Now somebody please tell me how such a list, in the context of being called snakes, is helpful to any person's soul.  It will only make them more stubborn if anything---that is presuming they are snakes.  

    I do not have your number, but calling or not calling you has nothing to do with concern.  I have offered you an Our Father.







    Why in the world would someone have to be gαy to like this sight?  I'm sorry, but that simply makes no sense.
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Schiavo Revisited
    « Reply #72 on: July 18, 2011, 09:43:55 AM »
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  • Quote from: Raoul76
    I also know you think you are doing a public service.


    This probably won't change your view, which is no biggie, but...

    From SGGInfo, which site I had/have nothing to do with:

    The second part of our series revisiting Fr. Cekada's distorted view of history in his article School Dazed, has as its primary focus the work of one man, Eamon Shea.  Since early 2008, Mr. Shea has been heaping out a helping of trouble for St. Gertrude the Great and its bemused pastors.  Several months of teaching at SGG was enough to convince this Notre-Dame graduate that the school was nothing more than a sham, duping parishioners and benefactors worldwide.    When he complained about the outdated textbooks, the charade of a  curriculum, and worst of all, the treatment of the students by a fanatical and bullying principal, he was fired.  From that time on, the name of Shea was a dirty word around St. Gertrude's.  On Christmas Eve, 2008, he was promoted several ranks in Fr. Cekada's "Enemies of God" lineup, after he sent out a mass e-mail to parishioners roundly attacking what he described as the "virtual catholicism" of St. Gertrude the Great Church and School.  Veiled threats were inferred in his writing by Fr. Cekada, who wasted no time in spreading the rumor that Mr. Shea would likely be attacking the congregation at Midnight Mass with an AK-47.  Mark Lotarski later admitted he almost didn't show up for services as off-duty police officers in the parish were drafted to attend, replete with all their weaponry.  Of course, the pen is mightier even than an AK-47, and Mr. Shea was content to write his attacks from the comparative safety of the newly established website www.cathinfo.com.  Whether or not you agree with everything Mr. Shea says and does, or with the way he says and does them, it should be remembered that he was to the present situation what Paul Revere was to the American War of Independence.  He was not content with being silenced for his beliefs, but stood up for them, shouted them from the rooftops, and continued ringing the alarm until other people listened.  For this at least, he deserves our gratitude. [FWIW, this is just one of many such comments I could share...]

    Mike, I honestly love you like a brother.  I really appreciate your oft-insightful comments about myriad topics and am certain we'd have an almost-illegally-uproarious blast if we shared a bottle (or three) of vino and had a chance to chew the proverbial fat until the break of day.  However, in this matter, your analysis (and your psychoanalysis of me) is, to some degree, wrong -- which is very understandable, as you do not know the Vipers of Vaudeville like I do.

    I know you are a man of good will, but I will not be "letting it go" until what I (and many others) know to be a very real threat to Traddieland and my fellow sheep is completely eliminated.  FWIW, I am not "aggravated" with you in the least and you are free to speak as boldly as you like.  My skin is armadillo-esque and I reserve hammering for those who deserve it -- you do not.  I just don't but into the whole, "See collar, will grovel" nonsense -- and neither does anyone else in Traddieland, if people would stop and think about it for a few moments.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Schiavo Revisited
    « Reply #73 on: July 18, 2011, 09:50:22 AM »
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  • Quote from: gladius_veritatis
    I just don't but into the whole, "See collar, will grovel" nonsense...


    This should read..."I don't BUY into..."  :smirk:
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline ColdFusion

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    Schiavo Revisited
    « Reply #74 on: July 24, 2011, 12:19:56 AM »
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  • Quote from: Raoul76

     
    I also know you think you are doing a public service.  


    That is exactly what he did.