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Author Topic: Savonarola the Sede-Vacantist: "Pope Alexander VI is not the Pope"  (Read 456 times)

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Offline Nishant Xavier

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Savonarola the Sede-Vacantist: "Pope Alexander VI is not the Pope"
« on: January 07, 2020, 06:45:56 AM »
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    • From a sede site: 

    "Cardinal Journet, in his The Church Of The Word Incarnate (Vol. 1, p. 484, trans. A. H. C. Downes, Sheed & Ward 1955) offers the following information about these letters of Savonarola: 'In a study in the "Revue Thomiste" (1900, p. 631, "Lettres de Savonarole aux princes chretiens pour la reunion d'un concile"), P. Hurtaud, O.P., has entered a powerful plea in the case - still open - of the "Piagnoni". He makes reference to the explanation of Roman theologians prior to Cajetan, according to which a Pope who fell into heresy would be deposed "ipso facto": the Council concerned would have only to put on record the fact of heresy and notify the Church that the Pope involved had forfeited his primacy. Savonarola, he says, regarded Alexander VI as having lost his faith. "The Lord, moved to anger by this intolerable corruption, has, for some time past, allowed the Church to be without a pastor. For I bear witness in the name of God that this Alexander VI is in no way Pope and cannot be. For quite apart from the execrable crime of simony, by which he got possession of the [papal] tiara through a sacrilegious bargaining, and by which every day he puts up to auction and knocks down to the highest bidder ecclesiastical benefices, and quite apart from his other vices - well-known to all - which I will pass over in silence, this I declare in the first place and affirm it with all certitude, that the man is not a Christian, he does not even believe any longer that there is a God; he goes beyond the final limits of infidelity and impiety" (Letter to the Emperor). [Footnote : These were neither new nor isolated accusations. cf. Schnitzer, "Savonarola", Italian translation by E. Rutili, Milan, 1931, vol. ii, p. 303.]"

    Questions to sedes:

    1. Was Savonarola wrong in thinking the Pope was a Heretic and an Atheist, by private judgment? If so, how do you know for sure that you also may not be wrong?

    2. If you claim Savonarola the SedeVacantist was right, how do you explain that the Catholic Church judged otherwise? Cardinal Billot says this.

    Thoughts?
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    "We wish also to make amends for the insults to which Your Vicar on earth and Your Priests are everywhere subjected [above all by schismatic sedevacantists - Nishant Xavier], for the profanation, by conscious neglect or Terrible Acts of Sacrilege, of the very Sacrament of Your Divine Love; and lastly for the Public Crimes of Nations who resist the Rights and The Teaching Authority of the Church which You have founded." - Act of Reparation to the Sacred Heart of Lord Jesus.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Savonarola the Sede-Vacantist: "Pope Alexander VI is not the Pope"
    « Reply #1 on: January 07, 2020, 08:18:51 AM »
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    • You are far too concerned about the personal heresy issue.  Alexander VI did not teach error to the Universal Church.  What we care about is the corruption of the Magisterium and Universal Discipline of the Church.  Unfortunately, we have Bergoglio TEACHING obvious heresy to the Church in Amoris Laetitia ... heresy that is acknowledge by many in the Novus Ordo, including a group of Cardinals.
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    Offline CatholicInAmerica

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    Re: Savonarola the Sede-Vacantist: "Pope Alexander VI is not the Pope"
    « Reply #2 on: January 07, 2020, 09:05:40 AM »
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    Pope St. Pius X pray for us

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Savonarola the Sede-Vacantist: "Pope Alexander VI is not the Pope"
    « Reply #3 on: January 07, 2020, 03:35:55 PM »
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    • Oh Xavier, why didn't you include the link to the full article?
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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Savonarola the Sede-Vacantist: "Pope Alexander VI is not the Pope"
    « Reply #4 on: January 07, 2020, 03:36:13 PM »
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    • Quote from: XavierSem on January 07, 2020, 06:45:56 AM
    1. Was Savonarola wrong in thinking the Pope was a Heretic and an Atheist, by private judgment? If so, how do you know for sure that you also may not be wrong?

    2. If you claim Savonarola the SedeVacantist was right, how do you explain that the Catholic Church judged otherwise? Cardinal Billot says this.

    Thoughts?
    .
    There is nothing in the article to indicate anyone in his time thought he was wrong to say that a pope had lost office for apostasy. The problem seems to be that no one else in his time actually thought Alexander VI had actually left the Faith.
    .
    Quote from: XavierSem on January 07, 2020, 06:45:56 AM
    2. If you claim Savonarola the SedeVacantist was right, how do you explain that the Catholic Church judged otherwise? Cardinal Billot says this.
    .
    I'm a little curious about what Cd. Billot has to say about this strange story, but as I said, it seems clear that no one else at the time thought Alexander VI had publicly deviated from the Faith.
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    Offline roscoe

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    Re: Savonarola the Sede-Vacantist: "Pope Alexander VI is not the Pope"
    « Reply #5 on: January 07, 2020, 04:45:29 PM »
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    • Savanarola was an admitted heretic or something similar. He confessed, was spared the fire and strangled first. Alex VI never taught heresy & at least a few of the accusations against him( such as orgies in the Vatican) are false.... :fryingpan:
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    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

    Offline King Wenceslas

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    Re: Savonarola the Sede-Vacantist: "Pope Alexander VI is not the Pope"
    « Reply #6 on: January 08, 2020, 09:54:29 AM »
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    • Alexander VI, John XII, Benedict IX. One and all the same. Power and money was their reason for being Popes.

    But Popes they were and the Church will have to deal with that fact until the end of time.

    As for Francis he must be included as a valid heretical Pope after 7 years of appointing Bishops. Apostolicity must be maintained.

    The real world and theological musings by long dead men can no longer be reconciled.

    Deal with it.
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    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Savonarola the Sede-Vacantist: "Pope Alexander VI is not the Pope"
    « Reply #7 on: January 08, 2020, 10:12:30 AM »
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    • Quote from: King Wenceslas on January 08, 2020, 09:54:29 AM
    Alexander VI, John XII, Benedict IX. One and all the same. Power and money was their reason for being Popes.

    But Popes they were and the Church will have to deal with that fact until the end of time.

    As for Francis he must be included as a valid heretical Pope after 7 years of appointing Bishops. Apostolicity must be maintained.
    That's got to be the stupidest thing I've ever read here.  No one believes that.  Every true Catholic understands that a heretic cannot be a valid pope.  That's why the SSPX is very careful not to call any Conciliar popes heretics.  Even Siscoe and Salsa agree that a heretic would lose his office after a declaration.  Alexander VI was not a heretic.  No proof that he was a heretic was ever made public.  So your statement is heretical.  Saying that a heretic can be a valid pope is a heresy.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Savonarola the Sede-Vacantist: "Pope Alexander VI is not the Pope"
    « Reply #8 on: January 08, 2020, 03:25:21 PM »
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    • I'm so tired of the R&R "Apostolicity" argument.  They fail to consider that the Apostolicity requires not only a material but also a formal continuity with their predecessors, a continuation of the Church's mission and doctrine.  That fails with a rupture from Tradition of this magnitude.

    from the Catholic Encyclopedia article on "Apostolicity":
    Quote
    Apostolicity is the mark by which the Church of today is recognized as identical with the Church founded by Jesus Christ upon the Apostles. It is of great importance because it is the surest indication of the true Church of Christ, it is most easily examined, and it virtually contains the other three marks, namely, Unity, Sanctity, and Catholicity.
    ...
    Apostolicity of doctrine and mission is necessary. Apostolicity of doctrine requires that the deposit of faith committed to the Apostles shall remain unchanged. Since the Church is infallible in its teaching, it follows that if the Church of Christ still exists it must be teaching His doctrine. Hence Apostolicity of mission is a guarantee of Apostolicity of doctrine.

    We are Traditional Catholics precisely due to the recognition that this Conciliar establishment is NOT "identical with the Church founded by Jesus Christ on the Apostles", lacks the Four Marks of the Church, lacks "Apostolicity of doctrine and mission", and has not kept the "deposit of faith committed to the Apostles ... unchanged."
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