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Author Topic: Savonarola- A sedevacantist Historical Precedent.  (Read 2810 times)

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Offline Gregory I

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Savonarola- A sedevacantist Historical Precedent.
« on: October 05, 2011, 12:23:12 AM »
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  • http://www.sedevacantist.org/savonarola.html

    "Cardinal Journet, in his The Church Of The Word Incarnate (Vol. 1, p. 484, trans. A. H. C. Downes, Sheed & Ward 1955) offers the following information about these letters of Savonarola: 'In a study in the "Revue Thomiste" (1900, p. 631, "Lettres de Savonarole aux princes chretiens pour la reunion d'un concile"), P. Hurtaud, O.P., has entered a powerful plea in the case - still open - of the "Piagnoni". He makes reference to the explanation of Roman theologians prior to Cajetan, according to which a Pope who fell into heresy would be deposed "ipso facto": the Council concerned would have only to put on record the fact of heresy and notify the Church that the Pope involved had forfeited his primacy. Savonarola, he says, regarded Alexander VI as having lost his faith. "The Lord, moved to anger by this intolerable corruption, has, for some time past, allowed the Church to be without a pastor. For I bear witness in the name of God that this Alexander VI is in no way Pope and cannot be. For quite apart from the execrable crime of simony, by which he got possession of the [papal] tiara through a sacrilegious bargaining, and by which every day he puts up to auction and knocks down to the highest bidder ecclesiastical benefices, and quite apart from his other vices - well-known to all - which I will pass over in silence, this I declare in the first place and affirm it with all certitude, that the man is not a Christian, he does not even believe any longer that there is a God; he goes beyond the final limits of infidelity and impiety" (Letter to the Emperor). [Footnote : These were neither new nor isolated accusations. cf. Schnitzer, "Savonarola", Italian translation by E. Rutili, Milan, 1931, vol. ii, p. 303.]

    'Basing our argument on the doctrinal authorities which Cajetan was soon to invoke, we should say that Savonarola wished to collect together the Council, not because, like the Gallicans, he placed a Council above the Pope (the Letters to the Princes are legally and doctrinally unimpeachable), but so that the Council, before which he would prove his accusation, should declare the heresy of Alexander VI in his status as a private individual. P. Hurtaud concludes: "Savonarola's acts and words - and most of his words are acts - should be examined in detail. Each of his words should be carefully weighed and none of the circuмstances of his actions should be lost sight of. For the friar is a master of doctrine; he does not only know it but he lives it too. In his conduct nothing is left to chance or the mood of the moment. He has a theological or legal principle as the motive power in each one of his decisions. He should not be judged by general laws, for his guides are principles of an exceptional order - though I do not mean by this that he placed himself above or outside the common law. The rules he invokes are admitted by the best Doctors of the Church; there is nothing exceptional in them save the circuмstances which make them lawful, and condition their application."'

    Now, even though Alexander VI was a valid Pope, and it is certainly possible that he was a secret and internal heretic, nevertheless, the Precedent is plain: There have been good and holy People in the Church in the Past who have called into doubt the legitimacy of the Pope on the basis of personal heresy. THese people, were for all intents and purposes sedevacantists: They said there is NO POPE because of heresy.

    Precedent.
    'Take care not to resemble the multitude whose knowledge of God's will only condemns them to more severe punishment.'

    -St. John of Avila


    Offline roscoe

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    Savonarola- A sedevacantist Historical Precedent.
    « Reply #1 on: October 05, 2011, 01:43:34 AM »
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  • later
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'


    Offline Charles

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    Savonarola- A sedevacantist Historical Precedent.
    « Reply #2 on: October 05, 2011, 04:17:59 PM »
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  •  :geezer:

    change your sig Roscoe

    Offline Gregory I

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    Savonarola- A sedevacantist Historical Precedent.
    « Reply #3 on: October 05, 2011, 07:40:00 PM »
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  • Come on roscoe, I specifically posted this so you could change your sig-

    Denied!  :fryingpan:

    lol. And I also think it is a great example of how there is an historical precedent for sedevacantism. There is no evidence that Friar Savonarola was wrong either. Alexander VI is valid as FAR AS WE KNOW, but Savonarola sought to convene a council to plead his case that the Pope was a heretic; for he was not a public or manifest heretic, although he had notoriety.
    'Take care not to resemble the multitude whose knowledge of God's will only condemns them to more severe punishment.'

    -St. John of Avila

    Offline roscoe

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    Savonarola- A sedevacantist Historical Precedent.
    « Reply #4 on: October 05, 2011, 08:45:23 PM »
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  • No time now-- I will read later.
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'


    Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

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    Savonarola- A sedevacantist Historical Precedent.
    « Reply #5 on: October 05, 2011, 08:56:38 PM »
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  • No time to read? I read that in one minute.
    Please ignore ALL of my posts. I was naive during my time posting on this forum and didn’t know any better. I retract and deeply regret any and all uncharitable or erroneous statements I ever made here.

    Offline PartyIsOver221

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    Savonarola- A sedevacantist Historical Precedent.
    « Reply #6 on: October 05, 2011, 09:04:13 PM »
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  • Yeah, I call BS. I don't like reading much, and I still read it quickly.


    I think you just don't like to read stuff that affects YOUR OPINIONS and may result in you having to CHANGE THEM.

    Offline Gregory I

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    Savonarola- A sedevacantist Historical Precedent.
    « Reply #7 on: October 05, 2011, 09:08:41 PM »
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  • You had time to say that twice roscoe.  :fryingpan:
    'Take care not to resemble the multitude whose knowledge of God's will only condemns them to more severe punishment.'

    -St. John of Avila


    Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

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    Savonarola- A sedevacantist Historical Precedent.
    « Reply #8 on: October 05, 2011, 09:29:41 PM »
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  • What PIO said. Roscoe just doesn't like to read anything that may affect his position.
    Please ignore ALL of my posts. I was naive during my time posting on this forum and didn’t know any better. I retract and deeply regret any and all uncharitable or erroneous statements I ever made here.

    Offline roscoe

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    Savonarola- A sedevacantist Historical Precedent.
    « Reply #9 on: October 05, 2011, 09:35:50 PM »
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  • Quote from: Gregory I
    http://www.sedevacantist.org/savonarola.html

    "Cardinal Journet, in his The Church Of The Word Incarnate (Vol. 1, p. 484, trans. A. H. C. Downes, Sheed & Ward 1955) offers the following information about these letters of Savonarola: 'In a study in the "Revue Thomiste" (1900, p. 631, "Lettres de Savonarole aux princes chretiens pour la reunion d'un concile"), P. Hurtaud, O.P., has entered a powerful plea in the case - still open - of the "Piagnoni". He makes reference to the explanation of Roman theologians prior to Cajetan, according to which a Pope who fell into heresy would be deposed "ipso facto": the Council concerned would have only to put on record the fact of heresy and notify the Church that the Pope involved had forfeited his primacy. Savonarola, he says, regarded Alexander VI as having lost his faith. "The Lord, moved to anger by this intolerable corruption, has, for some time past, allowed the Church to be without a pastor. For I bear witness in the name of God that this Alexander VI is in no way Pope and cannot be. For quite apart from the execrable crime of simony, by which he got possession of the [papal] tiara through a sacrilegious bargaining, and by which every day he puts up to auction and knocks down to the highest bidder ecclesiastical benefices, and quite apart from his other vices - well-known to all - which I will pass over in silence, this I declare in the first place and affirm it with all certitude, that the man is not a Christian, he does not even believe any longer that there is a God; he goes beyond the final limits of infidelity and impiety" (Letter to the Emperor). [Footnote : These were neither new nor isolated accusations. cf. Schnitzer, "Savonarola", Italian translation by E. Rutili, Milan, 1931, vol. ii, p. 303.]

    'Basing our argument on the doctrinal authorities which Cajetan was soon to invoke, we should say that Savonarola wished to collect together the Council, not because, like the Gallicans, he placed a Council above the Pope (the Letters to the Princes are legally and doctrinally unimpeachable), but so that the Council, before which he would prove his accusation, should declare the heresy of Alexander VI in his status as a private individual. P. Hurtaud concludes: "Savonarola's acts and words - and most of his words are acts - should be examined in detail. Each of his words should be carefully weighed and none of the circuмstances of his actions should be lost sight of. For the friar is a master of doctrine; he does not only know it but he lives it too. In his conduct nothing is left to chance or the mood of the moment. He has a theological or legal principle as the motive power in each one of his decisions. He should not be judged by general laws, for his guides are principles of an exceptional order - though I do not mean by this that he placed himself above or outside the common law. The rules he invokes are admitted by the best Doctors of the Church; there is nothing exceptional in them save the circuмstances which make them lawful, and condition their application."'

    Now, even though Alexander VI was a valid Pope, and it is certainly possible that he was a secret and internal heretic, nevertheless, the Precedent is plain: There have been good and holy People in the Church in the Past who have called into doubt the legitimacy of the Pope on the basis of personal heresy. THese people, were for all intents and purposes sedevacantists: They said there is NO POPE because of heresy.

    Precedent.


    This is an old one. It is Savanarola who was the heretic.
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

    Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

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    Savonarola- A sedevacantist Historical Precedent.
    « Reply #10 on: October 05, 2011, 09:39:48 PM »
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  • LOL! Here you have a man who hasn't attended Mass in over 40 years (and feigns innocence over it) and falsely interprets the Bible, yet he calls Savanrola the heretic. I think you're just saying that to excuse yourself from having to change your signature.

    You're dishonest.
    Please ignore ALL of my posts. I was naive during my time posting on this forum and didn’t know any better. I retract and deeply regret any and all uncharitable or erroneous statements I ever made here.


    Offline Gregory I

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    Savonarola- A sedevacantist Historical Precedent.
    « Reply #11 on: October 05, 2011, 09:44:24 PM »
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  • read the website.

    It is precedent.
    'Take care not to resemble the multitude whose knowledge of God's will only condemns them to more severe punishment.'

    -St. John of Avila

    Offline Kephapaulos

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    Savonarola- A sedevacantist Historical Precedent.
    « Reply #12 on: October 05, 2011, 09:57:21 PM »
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  • Quote from: Charles
    :geezer:

    change your sig Roscoe


    I see what roscoe means as far as no one actually called a sedevacantist before Vatican II, but the term is something used in the context of our current Church crisis.
    "Non nobis, Domine, non nobis; sed nomini tuo da gloriam..." (Ps. 113:9)

    Offline LordPhan

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    Savonarola- A sedevacantist Historical Precedent.
    « Reply #13 on: October 05, 2011, 10:08:29 PM »
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  • I would ask Gregory how Alexander VI was not a public heretic by his defintion of same.

    Alexander VI is not a manifest heretic by my definition since we require a council to determine that. However by your definition why do you say he wasn't?

    He turned the Papal Palace into a whorehouse, he held orgies with clerics and whores inside the Papal walls, his son killed men so he could rape their wives then tell everyone he was protected by the Pope to escape punishment.

    After the death of Alexander VI the Borgia family was hunted down like Bin Laden by the Church. Caesar Borgia the aforementioned son of Alexander VI took refuge in Navarre, Spain and France then invaded, a good Catholic Knight slew Borgia in the ensuing battle. Someone buried him on Church grounds, when the new Bishop came(because they had deposed the current one since he was a loyal follower of Alexander VI) he saw the Gravestone and demanded it be exhumed. They then dumped the evil Caesar Borgia's body on Secular grounds.

    Many of the abuses that occured during the reign of Alexander VI directly led to the Protestant rebellion(not everything the Protestants said was untrue, all of the dogma they said was untrue but there was a serious lack of faith because of this crisis) This was of course the first part of the last Crisis in the Church, obviously the Heretics Luther and Calvin would play a far greater role later. The Abuses were stamped out in the Councils of Florence and Trent.

    Offline roscoe

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    Savonarola- A sedevacantist Historical Precedent.
    « Reply #14 on: October 05, 2011, 10:48:06 PM »
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  • Savanarola was a self-admitted heretic. Many of the libels like the orgies in the Vatican story have been proven false. Truth is that the contributions of the Borgia family to the Church have been for much the most part illustrious and noble.

    At least Alex VI was a hetrosɛҳuąƖ.
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'